Episode talk:Villains

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Temp Summary (needs proofreading)

Summary moved to main episode page Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 21:06, 10 November 2008 (EST)

I'm updating the checklist of characters and locations, and I'll be doing some in place edits of Thrash's summary. I'm putting the summary in hide tags until the episode ends. --Falcomadol 21:09, 10 November 2008 (EST)

I've got a synopsis pretty much ready... --Gadfly 00:01, 11 November 2008 (EST)

I was writing this as the episode was airing so... Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 00:07, 11 November 2008 (EST)

As was I, without the aforementioned gaps... just rewatching it for proofing purposes. Should be completely proofed in about 10 minutes. --Gadfly 00:10, 11 November 2008 (EST)

And the second draft non-gap version, done. --Gadfly 00:25, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Considering I already saved my summary on this page as the episode aired, I put that one in the main page. I've incorporated some of your summary into the gaps in mine. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 00:59, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Correction? Gabriel doesn't seem to be examining his map of specials as much as taking it down and getting rid of it. He says to Elle he's cleaning up, getting rid of the things that cause him to think bad thoughts. Saying he's examining his map changes the intention of the scene.--Mistyjo 11:53, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Oh Hell Yes

This episode CLEANED HOUSE!--Falcomadol 21:59, 10 November 2008 (EST)

BUT USUTU... AND HIRO?? And wtf is Trevor's power?Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 22:00, 10 November 2008 (EST)
He has the power to shoot air! How amazing and I'm joking. -- Cael 22:02, 10 November 2008 (EST)
FFFFFFFFF! Fricking Arthur Petrelli is gay, man! I wanted Usutu to stay all alone and so we could have random precog from a place nobody's at so Usutu could know everything about everyone but not do anything about it. :P But it did clean house. It was pretty good. But I miss Usutu. Flint claims he got tackled by invisible man. Yay Claude reference! Trevor looks like a pervert, staring at Elle real creepy all the time. I'm guessing Trevor's power could've also been redeemed after the shanti virus and is what caused the lights to explode in the Bennet house. I had thought Trevor would have freezing. That would've cleaned house too. Kortu 22:08, 10 November 2008 (EST)
I miss Usutu too. But two new powers!!! I'm getting sick of the repeats... I'm so glad we're getting some new ones now. Metal hand guy was awesome. Seb.gwirionyn 22:13, 10 November 2008 (EST)
While I laughed at the Claude reference, it couldn't have been him. He was already long on the run from the company by this time. Just ano0ther of MANY plot-holes in this episode. (Elle having a relationship and going on missions with a partner, Sylar's never before seen power [unless you count when he shattered the lights in The Second Coming, but that would be ANOTHER plot hole since he doesnt have access to his old powers except for TK at the moment], Bennet knowing full well three of Sylar's powers but telling him while in captivity in season 1 that the only one they could figure out was TK...) --Action Figure 23:18, 10 November 2008 (EST)
That wasn't a plot hole, Sylar only exhibited Telekinesis through extensive testing. Bennet knew full well Sylar had multiple abilities, it's just Sylar wasn't exibiting those other abilities. --Dman dustin 01:11, 11 November 2008 (EST)
Secrecy is key to Noah's character, he hides things that don't need hiding along with those that do. Anything that makes him feel like he's building an advantage.--Falcomadol 01:38, 11 November 2008 (EST)
  • Great episode! I would be shocked if Hiro is really dead. I'm expecting it to be just a dream, and that he'll wake up, grab Ando and leave before Arthur can touch him. Unfortunately, I don't think Hiro can save Usutu (at least not in the short term). I got the Heroes Interactive, and will add it shortly.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:12, 11 November 2008 (EST)
    • I just noticed this was the first episode Rob Fresco has written for Heroes. I think he did a really good job.--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:10, 13 November 2008 (EST)

Caps

I'll be capping in about 10 minutes if there is anything special that you want. I'll also be responding to things on the requested screencaps page as usual.--Falcomadol 22:05, 10 November 2008 (EST)

  • How about shots of Trevor's power? Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 22:07, 10 November 2008 (EST)
  • Headless Usutu, Haitian standing behind Angela and Arthur while eating, and Sylar on camera running around after his first kill would be nice. Metallic Skin Man and Flint popping popcorn would be sweet, too. Kortu 22:12, 10 November 2008 (EST)
    • Can you confirm what you mean by Sylar on camera running around after his first kill? I'm not seeing anything like that after Brian.--Falcomadol 23:21, 10 November 2008 (EST)
  • I'd like a couple shots of existing powers too... Elle using lightning to cut the noose, Linderman healing Angela's memory alterations, and lots of lovely flamethrowing actions by the Gordon siblings. Especially the popcorn popping 'cause that was power abuse at its finest. Seb.gwirionyn 22:15, 10 November 2008 (EST)
  • Got to get a cap of the list Sylar had with Trevor Zeitlan, James & Molly Walker (her first name was listed in parenthesis by her dad's name) on it. --Snow Leapord 22:35, 10 November 2008 (EST)
    • Ok so far I have the title card (it's the VILLAINS logo), I've got Flint popping corn, Meredith throwing fire, the noose, Thompson using the fire extinguisher to put out Flint, Elle using lightning to save Gabriel, Meredith and Flint (teamup), Meredith and Thompson (teamup), the homeless vet special, his power, Meredith flaming on to stop him, Gabriel's list, Noah's undercover van (interior and exterior), the peach pie, Arthur dominating Angela's mind, Flint burning stuff in the train, Angela's lentil soup in process, Linderman healing her memory, Elle's Ziti, Trevor, Trevor shooing glasses, the Hatian, Elle zapping Gabriel, Gabriel throwing Elle, Gabriel cutting open Trevor, Elle and Noah (teamup), Nathan finding Arthur apparently dead, Usutu's headless body, and his bodiless head, and Arthur holding Hiro's head. I'm going to start editing and posting these now.--Falcomadol 22:37, 10 November 2008 (EST)

0308-fire-extinguisher.jpg
0308-flint-pops-popcorn.jpg
0308-meredith-flint-teamup.jpg
0308-gabriel-noose.jpg
0308-elle-power-noose-gabriel.jpg
0308-meredith-power-thompson.jpg
0308-headshot-homeless-special.jpg
0308-homeless-town-austin.jpg
0308-gabriel-list-3.jpg
0308-meredith-thompson-teamup.jpg
0308-meredith-ability-homeless-tent-village.jpg
0308-homeless-special-ability.jpg
The hits keep comin' I've got more.
0308-arthur-linderman-teamup.jpg
0308-arthur-power-angela.jpg
0308-elle-pie.jpg
0308-elle-ziti-1.jpg
0308-elle-ziti-2-gabriel.jpg
0308-flint-power-train.jpg
0308-gabriel-ability-elle.jpg
0308-gabriel-elle-pie.jpg
0308-lentil-soup.jpg
0308-linderman-ability-angela.jpg
0308-noah-listening-post-1.jpg
0308-noah-listening-post-2.jpg
0308-noah-listening-post-3.jpg
0308-noah-listening-post-4-elle.jpg
Fourteen more to go. Yawn.

  • You know: I really need an image of Sylar skulling this Trevor guy. I'm collecting pics of Sylar's kills for a friend. -- FlamingTomDude 2:52, 11 November 2008 (EDT)
    • I've got one, hold on a few minutes ;)--Falcomadol 02:05, 11 November 2008 (EST)

0308-arthur-haitian-power.jpg
0308-arthur-power-hiro.jpg
0308-dr-livitz.jpg
0308-elle-gabriel-power.jpg
0308-elle-noah-teamup.jpg
0308-elle-power.jpg
0308-elle-trevor-power.jpg
0308-nathan-angela-arthur-dead.jpg
0308-trevor-gabriel-power-1.jpg
0308-usutu-body.jpg
Ok, that's all the caps that I have, and it covers the whole episode. If you see something else that you want capped, let me know.--Falcomadol 02:12, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Arthur's Telepathy?

It seems as though his is more advanced than Matt or Maury's. Sort of combining mental manipulation and telepathy.Exproject 22:35, 10 November 2008 (EST)

  • Or maybe he has Mental Manipulation and Telepathy and was able to combine the use of them like Peter has been shown to combine the use of Invisibility & Telekinesis. --Snow Leapord 22:36, 10 November 2008 (EST)
  • Building on what Exproject said, Arthur could have "told" Angela to forget what she knew about his plans for Nathan. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 22:40, 10 November 2008 (EST)
    • It seemed to be straight telepathy to me. There were none of the telltale Haitian hand movements involved. I'd just stick with telepathy. Seb.gwirionyn
      • Neither of the other two telepaths have been able to command someone to say something and to simply erase memories or destroy the links to them. Either this is the next step of telepathy or combining the two abilities.Exproject 22:55, 10 November 2008 (EST)
        • If they can command someone to do something, why shouldn't they be able to command them to say something? Also, like I said, it's possible Arthur commanded Angela's brain to forget her memories (much like Eden was able to command her stepmother to die). Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 22:57, 10 November 2008 (EST)
          • To me it seemed more like "Mind Control" or "Mental Domination", which may be distinct from Telepathy, or like y'all said, Telepathy to the next octave (hope this formats correctly, forgive the noob :))--Dumpster juice 22:59, 10 November 2008 (EST)
            • I'm not sure about it just being told to do something. The fact that Linderman was able to restore her memories using his healing ability implies that there is some sort of physical trauma involved. This is more violent than simply mindfucking, this is mindraping.--Falcomadol 00:57, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Trevors Power...possible naming?

um...Im sure most of us are wondering the same thing, Trevors power, i SO thought it was gonna be freezing but no, its like TK bullets...or Air shots, maybe its the incredible power to make glass shatter...ohhh, thats on my desired list along with Nerve gas sweat and Stank Chlorine breath!--Anthony Gooch 22:37, 10 November 2008 (EST)

  • Perhaps this discussion should be continued on the actual talk page for Trevor's ability. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 22:38, 10 November 2008 (EST)
    • I'm coining it as FINGER BANG --Action Figure 23:07, 10 November 2008 (EST)
      • Perversity aside, I call winner.--Riddler 23:08, 10 November 2008 (EST)
        • Someone on Trevor's page seems to think it's Freezing.--Gadfly 01:35, 11 November 2008 (EST)
  • His power is a complicated one. By the naming convention we would call it 'Smashing' (descriptive) or 'Trevor's ability.' -- FlamingTomDude 1:54, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Continuity issue

Gabriel is hanging himself after killing Brian, and everything appears to be happening with Elle in a very short period of time, but as Noah and Elle are leaving after Gabriel kills Trevor, Mohindar is driving the cab, not Chandra...either this relationship worked itself out over a period of weeks, during which time Gabriel killed again (Chandra), or there's a reality gap here.--Falcomadol 23:20, 10 November 2008 (EST)

  • Nice catch...10 points for you lol--Anthony Gooch 23:26, 10 November 2008 (EST)
    • Just about to add this to my list of plotholes above. They act as though Trevor is Sylar's secongd murder, but he should have been killing for MONTHS by then including Chandra... This episode may have more plotholes and retcons than any other...--Action Figure 23:30, 10 November 2008 (EST)
      • Well, yeah, this episode did some weird things with the space time continium. Like how Elle managed to be in New York City and in Odessa, Texas at the same time. In Elle's First Assignment, Elle saw Claire jump off the coal mill. Part of this episode takes place on that same day (When HRG gets into Mohinder's cab). They all watched the eclipse that day. I guess that's what we get for letting Alexander take a hold of the reigns.--Cairoi 23:42, 10 November 2008 (EST)
        • I think we're just going to have to imagine that it was Chandra driving that cab then, that's the major lynchpin problem. How did you pin HRG getting into Mohinder's cab to the same day that Elle was watching Claire in the mill? The rest of this stuff could be somewhat flexible in terms of timing (the Meredith things could happen after the things shown contemporaneously in this episode, but in the same general period of time).--Falcomadol 23:45, 10 November 2008 (EST)
          • The eclipse happened when Peter got in Mohinder's cab, which was after Claire had both jumped off of the oil rig and saved the man in the train crash. Essentially, it should have been happening at the same time Sylar was killing Trevor, as Peter would have just been getting in the cab then. This is all in the same day. Genesis. --Action Figure 00:29, 11 November 2008 (EST)
            • Ah yeah, you're right. It wouldn't be simultaneous, but it would be happening within an hour (New York being Eastern time zone and Austin being Central, then you have Nikki in Vegas in the Mountain time zone. Of course, this is TV, where there are no time zones, probably).--Falcomadol 00:43, 11 November 2008 (EST)
              • Is it also possible that because this whole thing is Hiro's dream that some things got mixed up? I mean, dreams never truly do fallow the laws of physics... or time. --Ryuutakeshi 11:23, 12 November 2008 (PST)
  • I'm not sure I understand what you are all talking about but there was six months between the time Sylar killed Brian to the time Mr. Bennet got in the cab with Mohinder. I don't know if that helps or not. --Dman dustin 02:01, 11 November 2008 (EST)
    • So six months after killing Brian, and at least a week or two (to give Mohinder time to get to New York) after killing Chandra, Gabriel attempts to hang himself while suffering flashbacks of his killing of Brian, while not feeling any remorse at all over killing Chandra. And during this time, he manifests the full Gabriel personality, rather than the Sylar personality shown in the first season. This episode is just causing me problems, more of them the longer I think about it.--Falcomadol 02:17, 11 November 2008 (EST)
      • I don't think there's a huge time problem here. This ep was edited to be dramatic. I believe that the Petrelli storyline took place 18 months ago (this would be the same time as Six Months Ago), and stayed in that time frame. All of the other story lines happened around and during Genesis. Thus, after we see Peter get out of the cab, the next scene goes back in time six months again to show Arthur's funeral. I think Gabriel's suicide attempt makes perfect sense after he kills Chandra, after all it was he who helped him learn of his abilities. It may have to do with permission from the actor to use his likeness in the episode, which is why we only see clips of murdering Brian.--Raffster 13:11, 11 November 2008 (EST)
        • That still leaves a major problem. In April 2006 Sylar kills Brian (Six Months Ago). By July 2006 his killing spree has attracted the attention of the FBI (Seven Minutes to Midnight). At the end of September 2006, he kills Chandra (Don't Look Back). A few days after this, Mohinder arrives in town and gets a job as a cab driver. So if he attempted suicide after he killed Chandra, he'd by then killed quite a number of people and become quite ruthless about it (entirely different from the Gabriel we saw in this episode). That would also mean that the entire sequence of Elle befriending Sylar took place over a matter of just a couple days (it seemed to me that it was longer than that). On the other hand, if he'd attempted suicide in the late spring after killing Brian, it means that the sequence takes place over a period of months, and all the while Elle and Bennett are following him he's busy carrying out a huge murder spree without them noticing. Either way, it doesn't quite add up. --Maelwys 13:29, 11 November 2008 (EST)
          • While I can agree that this goes against what we knew of Sylar in the first season, I don't see it as a continuity error. It's definitely a retcon, but the way I see it, we were deliberately introduced to Sylar as a monster, the villain to be feared. Even by the end of Season 1, we learned this not to be true, as he was just one factor in a bigger conspiracy, at that point with Linderman at the top. We have now learned that Gabriel is a far more complex character, both to be feared and empathized. Clearly The Company and in particular, Angela already know that Sylar can be trusted under the right circumstances, this story explains why. This is a window into that side of Gabriel which was always there, fitting in very much with the theme that he is constantly at war with his demons (the hunger). I also think it fitting that Elle revealing her powers at the end tips him over the edge, to believe that many people cannot be trusted with their abilities.--Raffster 14:01, 11 November 2008 (EST)
            • Is it possible that the Mohinder's cab scene did happen a few months after Sylar killed Trevor, and Elle and Noah were talking about something that happened a while ago? - Hive 19:07, 11 November 2008 (EST)
  • The other continuity error that got me was that when Thompson took down Flint and Meridith, his partner on that mission was alluded to be Claude. But by then Claude should've been long gone from the Company. --Maelwys 06:41, 11 November 2008 (EST)
    • This is a key point. Thompson is basically shown either working without a partner, which is a no-no, or he's working with Claude, who just doesn't have an on-screen/speaking role.--Falcomadol 16:25, 11 November 2008 (EST)
      • Ah, I noticed that to. Claude is believed to be dead by the Company. Remember how HRG "killed" him back in '99? Claude couldn't possibly be Thompson's partner at the time. Hmm, I sense another invible man... Or it could be a continuity slip-up. --Ryuutakeshi 11:20, 12 November 2008 (PST)
  • Bennet was also in Madras, India for a bit, completing that mission. Maybe that is the mission Bennet was talking about on the phone. The mission actually continued longer than the second victim, but it was simply surveillance. Elle is still unhappy because she's in a mission she doesn't want to be a part of, which has gone on for a little longer than expected. The surveillance might also explain how Bennet knew that Chandra had been killed and stuff. I don't know, I'm clutching at straws. --DocM 13:48, 11 November 2008 (EST)

What about Elle? In Four Months Ago she claims she's never been on a date, and lived in a building for sixteen years. She seems to agree with the shrinks that she's a sociopath with paranoid delusions. Her character blurb here describes her as "mentally unstable and homicidal." And yet she's perfectly comfortable flirting with and manipulating Sylar here. --Gadfly 12:29, 12 November 2008 (EST)

  • Maybe she doesn't count a date to fool Sylar as a real date. Another thing: no one noticed that Arthur was supposed to kill himself, or, at least, Angela told so to Peter? I don't know how Nathan could see any kind of suicidal attempt on Arthur's almost death. Scarlet Girl 09:36, 16 November 2008 (Brasilia Time).
    • Can someone put together a list of broken continuities here?--Riddler 13:35, 16 November 2008 (EST)
  • I assumed the Haitian took care of Nathan with regards to Arthur's death. Bacon warrior 23:23, 17 November 2008 (EST)
  • It's been a while but here's how I see it:
The Claude problem - I'm pretty sure the company has more than one invisible person working for them.
HRG and Elle talking before HRG got into Mohinder's cab was months after trevor's death. Elle and HRG flew into new york to work on their assignment - clearing out (what is now) mohinder's apartment. Then HRG got into mohinder's cab at the correct time from six months ago.
Failing these, Hiro is a time traveller and his ability mixed with Usutu's paste would most probably cause mix timelines and all that jazz.

That's my opinion. --mc_hammark 18:42, 6 September 2009 (EDT)

List vs. List

Should we make different pages for Sylar's list and Chandra's list...if so, we need pics right? and did anyone catch those names on the list, did anyone else see Issacs name?--Anthony Gooch 23:25, 10 November 2008 (EST)

  • I have three different clear pictures of Gabriel's list. The names are Brian Davis, Trevor Zeitlan, James Walker (Molly), Charlene Andrews, and Sparrow Redhouse. Davis, Zeitlan, and Walker are not on Chandra's List, which is itself a problem...--Falcomadol 23:48, 10 November 2008 (EST)
    • There are multiple lists Chandra had (Post its really), and besides Davis should be on Chandra's list,because that's how Sylar knew about Brian. Sylar picked up a post it and he angrily said something like "So that's it? you're just going to give up. You think this guy (Brian Davis) can move things with his mind, or are you going to give up on him too." I know that's not exactly what he said but the idea is the same. He wouldn't have known about it if Chandra didn't. Same goes for James Walker, Sylar wouldn't have known about it if it was for Chandra. --Dman dustin 01:04, 11 November 2008 (EST)
      • I meant that these people were not included in the list shown in the wiki topic for Chandra's list, which is about the list that appeared on the computer. Trevor is completely new, which is IMHO a bad idea. Might as well kill off someone else whose name is out there that isn't being used for anything than create yet another new mutant to kill.--Falcomadol 01:32, 11 November 2008 (EST)
        • But Sylar made a list on what he knows, thanks to Chandra. Even if Trevor wasn't on the list with Nathan, and Claire, and whoever. Doesn't mean Chandra didn't know other evolved humans. AKA Post it notes. Or am I misinterpreting the point. --Dman dustin 01:40, 11 November 2008 (EST)
          • It's after two am, I'm not going to discuss this now.--Falcomadol 02:18, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Arthur's awareness of Nathan prosecuting Linderman

One of the first things that didn't sit right with me, amongst oh-so-much else in this epsidoe, was the confrontations between Nathan, his dad, and Linderman about Nathan taking Linderman to court. Having watched season 1 three times, I was reminded of the following from episode 10, "Six Months Ago":

"Peter is getting dressed in preparation for the deposition when there's a knock at the door. Nathan informs him that there's not going to be a deposition because their father is dead. Nathan claims that he died of a heart attack. He tells Peter to take comfort in the fact that their father didn't know what they were about to do to him." (Heroes Wiki episode summary)

I fast forwarded to this part personally and the direct quote from Nathan is as follows: "He had a heart attack this morning.... Take comfort in the fact that he didn't know his sons were about to stab him in the back."

Unforgivable oversight. More importantly, I remembered it because Arthur was supposed to be unaware of Nathan's prosecution of Linderman. But I also realized that the heart attack was supposed to have happened in the morning according to "Six Months Ago," while in "Villains," Nathan comes home and discovers his dad at night. --Ilovegurana 01:28, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Yes but when did Arthur "die"? Remember Nathan said Arthur was still breathing, it wasn't until they were at the hospital that he "died." It could've been very well a few hours since the time they found Arthur on the floor to the time Arthur told the doctor to tell his family he was dead.--Dman dustin 01:36, 11 November 2008 (EST)
Also I should point out Nathan couldn't of truly knew what his father knew or didn't know. For all Nathan knew, Arthur didn't know anything. Of course I feel like I missing something, or I would say: It's not like Arthur blatantly told Nathan what he knew causing a continuity issue. --Dman dustin 01:58, 11 November 2008 (EST)
I agree, Arthur may have 'died' early the next morning. As for Nathan's comment to Peter, I think this episode shows us that his dad was very aware that they were going after Linderman and Nathan didn't hide that fact, but as far as Nathan knew, his dad was not aware Peter would be giving a deposition against Arthur.--Mistyjo 11:20, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Claude

What exactly did Flint say about this "invisible man"? I really think it was obvious he was referring to Claude, but there is a good point about how Claude was no longer in the company at that time. I was thinking that perhaps Claude simply knocked Flint out, and Thompson found him. What exactly did Flint say about what the invisible man did to him? Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 12:18, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Meredith asked Flint what had happened, and he simply said that he was knocked out by an invisible man. As of now, it isn't a plothole, but hopefully we will find out if it was Claude who punched him, and, if so, if he did it on behalf of the Company. In that case, the writers will have some serious explaining to do :) --Pierre 14:25, 11 November 2008 (EST)
So Flint didn't say anything about the invisible man actually bringing him to the Company? In that case, I think it's pretty safe to assume that Claude was the one who knocked him out. (but didn't bring him to the company) Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 15:10, 11 November 2008 (EST)
We're forgetting something here: we only saw Thompson during the scene he captures Meredith, Company policy says "one of us, one of them", we only saw the one of us, which implies that there's a new invisible one of them in the Company. If it turns out to be Claude, then the writers have a serious plothole in their hands. Intuitive Empath 16:15, 11 November 2008 (EST)
But like I said, maybe Claude just tackled Flint for no apparent reason. Maybe he didn't do it for the company. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 16:17, 11 November 2008 (EST)
The point is, Thrash, that there had to be a "one of them" yet we didnt see one. Thus, they were implying it was Claude. Just another of MANY plotholes in this episode. --Action Figure 20:29, 11 November 2008 (EST)
Oh, I see. I misunderstood before. But perhaps since Thompson is a Company leader, he doesn't need a partner? I don't think we've seen him with a partner when he went after Ted in Company Man. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 20:31, 11 November 2008 (EST)
  • Could it have been "Chameleon Girl" from the deleted scenes on the Season 2 DVD? Still, Occam's Razor suggests the simplest solution is best. Claude is an "invisible man," he was at large and in a position to tackle Flint during the time period in question. Gadfly 13:07, 12 November 2008 (EST)

Should Claude get an entry for this episode on his page, explaining that he may (or may not) have been referenced as capturing Flint? Gadfly 10:49, 12 November 2008 (EST)

  • No. The only thing that points to Claude being referenced is when Flint says that an invisible man tackled him. Claude was no longer working for the Company, so the possibility of that individual being Claude is very small, very unlikely, and very odd if it is true. Ultimately it's speculation, and speculation that has huge holes in it. However, it would make a great question for Joe Pokaski and Aron Coleite in next week's CBR Behind the Eclipse installment. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 10:56, 12 November 2008 (EST)
    • Given Claude's casefile, and a mysterious "Classified" section corresponding to the period between his supposed death and Flint's capture, and the Company's knowledge that Claude survived. I'm not sure it's that unlikely. I postulate a few scenarios below. It may be speculation what Claude was up to, but given on-screen dialogue and the casefile it doesn't seem speculation that Claude is the one who met and subdued Flint.
    • Well I did say "may (or may not)" I ask because there's a link to his page here (okay, well, there was), and it seems the intent by the writer was to reference Claude. This may be something that is explained later. However, even if it's a chronological error, it still seems the error, and the reason it's an error, should be referenced on Claude's page, if only to note for people going there that the reference to him was incorrect. I don't know what the procedure is for documenting a person-appearance when the writers themselves are in error. Suggested text for Claude page: "Flint mentions an "invisible man" was responsible for his capture. However, it's unlikely this agent is Claude as he was not with the Company at the time." Spiffy it up as desired. Alternately, perhaps the "invisible man" reference should be linked to invisibility and it should be added under Characters that the Company had another unidentified invisible man working for them after Claude left. (Suggested text: After Claude's departure from the Company, an unidentified agent possessing this power captures Flint. (Villains) Either way, the Wiki exists to ease confusion, so referencing the error should presumably occur somewhere on the pages themselves, IMO... If it turns out the editors have an explanation down the road... well, we fix then. That's the great thing about Wikis. We cover our butts now while hedging our bets by acknowledging the reference without saying it's definitely Claude, but we can always fix it as more information become available. Gadfly 11:05, 12 November 2008 (EST)
    • You're missing the point... Flint never said that the invisible man brought him back to the Company. He just said he tackled him. Nothing about the invisible man actually bringing him back to the company. Given this, I think it's definitely Claude that Flint was talking about... Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 18:48, 12 November 2008 (EST)
  • Honestly I think there's a flaw. We don't know exactly when Flint was captured to the time Meredith saw him at the company in the cell. And unless Claude was no longer part of the company for three years at the time of the first season, I don't think its a plot hole. The thing about "flashbacks" is unless you know the "exact" time in which it occured, it could basically be at any time from the point you started thinking about it; back. Are we 100% sure that Claude left the company when Bennet got Claire, when Claire found out she was adopted, or just before Elle and Mr. Bennet started working together (assuming Elle and Mr. Bennet's first assignment together was shown in "Villans"). --Dman dustin 12:31, 12 November 2008 (EST)
    • The flashbacks don't take place any further back than "18 months" from the present-day. According to the casefile on Claude's page here, says he teamed up with Noah in 1991 and worked with him for eight years. This is confirmed in Company Man, as under orders Noah tries to kill Claude in 1999, thus ending Claude's involvement with the Company. One hopes! So the flashbacks we see here, and Flint's capture, take place approximately 2006-2007.. However, the casefile has a "Paragraph Omitted: Classified" section right after the bit where Noah attempted to terminate Claude in 1999, and then goes to Claude's current-day activities. It's possible Claude was doing... something classified for the Company between 1999 and 2006. And the Company knows he survived termination in '99. If it was that highly classified, you'd think it was more than simply a grab-n-bag on Flint, who even normal Thompson is able to subdue with minimal effort, however. Maybe Claude was back working with the Company, doing something highly classified as his casefile suggests, and stumbled across and then subdued Flint during this secret mission. Alternately, maybe both Claude and Flint got tied up in a classified Company mission that didn't specifically target either one of them. You could make a case that Claude was a bystander, saw Flint threatening some people, and intervened, leaving Flint to be captured. Gadfly 12:37, 12 November 2008 (EST)

Candice can appear invisible to people. Chameleon girl from the deleted scenes too. Seriously, on a show where people have abilities, couldn't it be possible someone else with invisibility or an ability similar to it bcaptured Flint? I don't know why you guys haven't applied logic to this situation :/.--Citizen 17:54, 12 November 2008 (EST)

  • Logically, if a scripted statement is made referring to an "invisible man," you look to an existing male character who has invisibility. Anything else is speculation. Plus, we're not talking about real life: we're talking about scripted dialogue, which is usually written with the intent to make things clear to the viewer and to serve a purpose (unless the intent is to obfuscate, which doesn't seem to be the case here unlike, say, any given episode of Lost :) ). There's no reason for the writer to have Flint say "invisible man" except to serve a particular purpose: to have him refer to an invisible man in the series. Also, logically, Candace didn't go around tackling people. Or would really need to, given her ability. Gadfly 18:07, 12 November 2008 (EST)
    • That really puts it perfectly. It's just common sense. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 18:51, 12 November 2008 (EST)
      • Plus, unless the writers and producers are Vulcans, analyzing what they would do "logically" isn't very useful. :) Writers don't make perfect logical decisions. That's why there's so many sites dedicates to gaffes and goofs. "Common sense dictates" is perhaps a better phrase, although in my experience it's not much of a dictator.--Gadfly 00:08, 13 November 2008 (EST)
        • It can be noted that he's possibly referring to Claude, but it's not entirely certain. Simple as that. I kinda agree that they are referring to Claude, and ignored continuity, because they're referring to him so much lately (Graphic Novels, Assignment Tracker profile and map), but it doesn't matter too much who he meant. He didn't name him, so he could be anyone.--Riddler 00:12, 13 November 2008 (EST)
          • Which was as noted above my point as well. It should get some notation. I'll go ahead and do so... --Gadfly 00:16, 13 November 2008 (EST)
          • I agree, but for the last time... Flint never said that the invisible man actually brought him into captivity. So if it WAS Claude, it's NOT a plothole... Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 12:32, 13 November 2008 (EST)
      • As a side note, even if it wasn't Claude it would be something of a plothole or inconsistency. When Noah is first told by Isaac that Peter was invisible, he immediately thinks of Claude, which sort of implies that either Claude was the only invisible man working for the Company at any point, or that Noah wasn't aware of any others. I happen to think it was Claude and they simply messed up the timeline (as they have a bunch of times before), but it is too speculative to say it was him and record on his page. --Stevehim 00:38, 13 November 2008 (EST)
        • Since Claude was his long-time partner, that would seem the simplest reason why he would think of Claude. Regardless, I've added this "unknown" character to the invisibility section, and added the theory with its pluses and minus to the Claude/fan theory section. I did not add a new episode/reference to the Claude page.--Gadfly 00:41, 13 November 2008 (EST)
          • I agree the logical thought process is to think of Claude, so I don't mind a mention on his page about the situation. However, there's no conclusive proof that it was Claude, so there should not be anything the definitively says it's Claude. That includes links--links referencing Flint's "invisible man" should not point to Claude. Any mention of the episode Villains on Claude's page or on the invisibility page should be in the Notes sections, not in the main body of the article. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:43, 13 November 2008 (EST)

Well, a new note has been added to the page: "Writers Joe Pokaski and Aron Coleite explained that this line was a mistake made by a new writer since Claude had been off the Company's "radar" for quite some time by this point." Would it be acceptable to take this as confirmation that Claude was the one that Flint was referring to, and could we add links where necessary? (keeping the note about the mistake, of course) Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 20:33, 3 December 2008 (EST)

Sylar's Power

Is anyone else wondering about Sylar's power? Bennet said he could redistribute powers. I sense Peter getting his powers back this way. ModestOddesy 13:12, 11 November 2008 (EST)

  • I think that's a bit a of a stretch. HRG says "transfer powers between vessels" I'm pretty sure he just meant from the donor to Sylar.Exproject 00:43, 12 November 2008 (EST)
  • I thought sylar's power was Intuitive Aptitude. the writers said everyone only has one ability so why does sylar have soooo many??? Shoyru1177 12:19, 12 November 2008 (EST)
    • Er... because he duplicates them using intuitive aptitude? o_O; Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 18:49, 12 November 2008 (EST)

Story cavets

In this episode Arthur is seem manipulating Angela Petrelli's memories, and wills. Yet with his son Nathan, he prefer to kill him over manipulating his memories and wills. He is not even trying any of his powers on Nathan. That make no sense. Why kill your own son, when you have the ability to make him think and do whatever you like? Huh?

  • Angela was around Arthur seemingly 24-7, and was relatively isolated. Nathan was a high-profile district attorney who only saw Arthur relatively erratically and was on record as being anti-Linderman. It's also iffy whether Arthur could do anything other than cause memory losses and to some degree simply force someone to take a passive role: convincing Angela to do nothing. The amount of telepathic "programming" necessary to tamper with Nathan's memories would have been much greater, and the behavioral changes noticeable to a wider range of people. Also, since Angela didn't seemingly get out that much, there was no one to remind her of the inconsistencies and gaps in her memories. It's also possible simply that Arthur didn't love Nathan (or Peter) that much. While he seems proud of Nathan's accomplishment (and perhaps as much as how they reflect on Arthur for bringing Nathan up right), there seems to be relatively little "love." He seems to "love" Angela a great deal more. Gadfly 14:35, 12 November 2008 (EST)
  • In a previous episode Arthur used his power to put Angela Petrelli in a coma, or a vegetative state, or a general state of paralysis. This was done without physical contact, and from a grate distance, so clearly Arthur does not need to be in a close physical proximity in order to exercise his powers over someone. Also when he has put Angela into a coma, he have done so because of a dream she dreamed, meaning that he can read her mind from a distance. In this episode he made Angela forget about the assassination attempt without touching her, hence touch is not required. IMHO He definitely could have put Nathan in a coma, from a distance, instead of ordering an assassination against him. Making Nathan and the DA team forget all about the investigation, is an other option that he had. Making the investigation team forget about their relevant appointments, new information that they are exposed to, etc' could have set back their investigation forever. IMHO.--Fakeometer 19:32, 12 November 2008 (EST)
    • My argument wasn't so much the range of Arthur's ability, but that he presumably has to be around the person(s) to be affected for some period of time to constantly wipe and adjust as they learn new things. Familiarity might also increase range: note that he touches Hiro to affect him at the end of this episode. And I'd still argue that you just can't wipe the minds of potentially dozens of relatively high-profile people, and their staff, and all the people they had appointments with, and not have repercussions. Look what happened when Matt and Sandra got wiped: they noticed discrepancies, Claire noticed discrepancies. And I'd argue he isn't that fond of his sons. He seems curiously unconcerned when Sylar blasts Peter out a window, even before he looks down and sees that Peter is alive. The best way to eliminate Nathan is to kill him: so he tells Linderman to kill Nathan.--Gadfly 00:42, 13 November 2008 (EST)
      • I agree that in order to control the situation Arthur may need to be aware of what is happening with a person after his procedure of memory wiping takes place, so he could rewipe the person in case that he relearns the information due to some evidence. I just also think that Arthur can read minds from a distance, as seen with Angela's dream, and now with Hero's. (BTW, The later (Hero) means that familiarity is not required in order to read minds.) Therefor Arthur should be able to monitor his victims via mind reading, and then to "constantly wipe and adjust" them, either from a distance or via appointments. He would certainly not have a problem meeting his son whenever he want to rewipe him. Perhaps Arthur thought that just killing Nathan will solve the problem instantly, and with less effort. He seems to be that kind of guy, saying things like - It seems you have outlived your usefulness, and not caring much about his sons. --Fakeometer 14:46, 13 November 2008 (EST)
      • Arthur has touched heroes before, when he used his power of 'power transfer from them to himself'. So he might be taking Hero's power there, when touching him. He doesn't need Hero's power because he already has it from Peter, but he doesn't want Hero to have it. An other option is that he is hurting Hero with one of the many powers that he has acquired so far. The point is that this touch is not relevant to the mind wiping power. However this scene raises the same problem again - Why does he kill Usutu when he can wipe his memories or take his power or put him at a coma or all of the above. I guess Arthur just like killing people, and then what's better for him then killing everyone, and I mean everyone. That's kind of an odd character. --Fakeometer 14:46, 13 November 2008 (EST)
    • I think it was Maury Parkman who put Angela in a coma, not Arthur. --Torley 13:23, 13 November 2008 (EST)
      • Wheather Maury or Arthur has put Angela in a coma is not relevant because Arthur has had Maury at his disposal at these times and could have used his services, even if he is incapable of that power.--Fakeometer 14:46, 13 November 2008 (EST)

Lead image...

Why are we using Sylar's list? The episode is titled Villains, and using that makes it seem like that's a list of villains. I think we should either use the actual title or maybe a shot of Arthur and Daniel talking.--Riddler 17:42, 15 November 2008 (EST)

  • Not the actual title--we've never done that before, and I don't think we should start now. I agree, though, that it's kind of backwards to have a list of "heroes" as the lead image for an episode called Villains. I'll grab something else now. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:38, 15 November 2008 (EST)
    • As to the why, there isn't any particular reason :D I couldn't think of anything particularly visually memorable from the episode than that, other than Elle holding that pie with a goofy smile on her face, and that just seemed inappropriate.--Falcomadol 22:58, 15 November 2008 (EST)
      • Hold it, hold it....Images of Elle are never inappropriate! :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:03, 15 November 2008 (EST)
        • Well, at least in this episode, every cap that I grabbed she had a stupid look on her face. Not her best side. I like the idea of the Arthur and Daniel two shot though. Not much wow there, but it's solid.--Falcomadol 23:04, 15 November 2008 (EST)

One year ago?

The captions repeatedly read "One year ago", but shouldn't they have read "Two years ago"? The events depicted in the episode took place before the pilot!

Noah's got Sore eyes

  • Did anybody else noticed that Jack Coleman's got sore eyes when he was talking to Elle, right before he went to Mohinder's cab.--NiveKJ13 (talk2me) 23:00, 28 December 2008 (EST)
    • No. Do you think you can get a screencap? I'd like to see... Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 23:07, 28 December 2008 (EST)
      • Here...
--NiveKJ13 (talk2me) 15:26, 31 December 2008 (EST)

HUGE PLOT HOLE

This episode takes place before Sylar takes Charlie's power in the original timeline. In this episode it is revealed that Noah was spying on Sylar and used Elle to gain his confidence. This would mean that Noah Bennet was well aware of who Gabriel Gray was and what he looked like. However, the retcon in Once Upon a Time in Texas reveals that HRG was present at the Burnt Toast Diner along with Sylar, Hiro, and Charlie. So why is he not alarmed at all by Gabriel's presence? This makes no logical sense. Your head explode. -Barbedknives (talk)02:55, 4 November 2009 (EST)

  • Well... Sylar is good at hiding. Green.gif AltesUTC CH