Fan Creation talk:Ability homology

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OK, none of the words Im using to describe this are relay working well. I need some feedback. Which one sounds best for the page

  1. Capabilities of Abilities
  2. Functions of Abilities
  3. Tasks/actions that can be performed by an ability
  4. something else entirely --SacValleyDweller (talk) 01:23, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Some possibilities
  1. Possible Effects of abilities, or just Effects of abilities
  2. Attributes of abilities
  3. Aspects of abilities
  4. Facets of abilities

Lesser possibilities:

  1. Qualities of abilities
  2. Characteristics of abilities
  3. Properties of abilities
Stevehim 01:31, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
  • I like "Capabilities of Abilities" myself, it's not too specific but still makes sense. --Aburu 01:33, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I think "Similar capability/task" is good enough.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:38, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I like effects myself. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 01:52, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Yeah, "Similar effect" is okay too.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:55, 19 October 2008 (EDT)

My thoughts on needs

  • I think the page is coming along good. Besides the recommendation I made on the TOC's talk page, I think perhaps a section on "Taking another's ability" or at the very least a notes section that points to ability theft. Also, appearance alteration should probably be in the section on "Altering the perception of others", potentially body insertion could be added to "Force another to do one's will" (While in Jesse's body, Peter used it to help out Noah Bennet when Jesse wanted to kill him), and gravitational manipulation should probably be added to "Move objects remotely" (Stephen did move objects, albeit into to another dimension, but he did move them). PS: should probably also add the themes navbar and when moving to mainspace, remember to not capitalize "homology".--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:38, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Good points. I'll add some of those as I agree with them. This as a theme? --SacValleyDweller (talk) 01:43, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Ah, I just thought of one more thanks to a comment Stevehim made elsewhere's: add a task section for "Surviving with little to no oxygen": Meredith's pyrokinesis let her survive low levels in a closed container, Adam's rapid cellular regeneration let him survive inside a coffin, and Bianca's lung adaptability let her breath underwater and through knockout gas. I thought you meant to add it as a theme; were you thinking of adding it just as a fan creation or elsewhere?--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:54, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Yet another that came to me: "See glimpses of the past": Clairsentience gave Bridget this direct ability, Hiro can actually go to the past.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:50, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Never mind about theme. I see you were planning to add it to Portal:Abilities. That's probably better.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:03, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
      • That'll be work for tomorrow (though I should be doing homework, lol) --SacValleyDweller (talk) 02:07, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
        • Other possible inclusions could be Future Ando's ability in the electrical arcs section, or Bliss and Horror (sort of) in the altering perceptions section. Stevehim 02:19, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
          • It's kind of unknown as to what Future Ando's ability is (could be lasers, a directed energy beam, or something else entirely) so I wouldn't include it. Bliss and horror didn't alter one's perception of reality, it just made you blissfully happy or horribly sad. And even if my disputed opinion that it could also cause shame or seduction were vindicated, that wouldn't be changing one's perception either.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:24, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
            • Well, it depends on what definition you're using of 'perception,' but you're right that it probably shouldn't go there in that it doesn't fit with the other examples. Stevehim 11:40, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
        • Did we ever figure out exactly how Sylar uses his TK to counter bullet shots? Is he stopping the bullets before they penetrate too far into his body, or is he somehow performing surgery on himself (remove bullets, maybe even close the wounds). I don't think we've been actually told anything (beyond the interview saying he uses it as a form of relative invulnerability), but if it's the latter, then TK should be added to Healing. Stevehim 17:47, 19 October 2008 (EDT)

Better lead image?

might there be a better one than the one that's there now?--SacValleyDweller (talk) 02:24, 19 October 2008 (EDT)

  • Isaac's comic of Hiro's Yatta when he traveled to the future, or Isaac's comic of Hiro telling Ando he could travel through both time and space? That would be a good example of two homologous abilities being displayed at one time.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:42, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I wasn't sure if I was allowed to take and combine images from the site (and if I'm not, I will delete them from my computer), but if it is ok, how about something like this? It's very rudimentarily thrown together, but it might be a good general idea for the pic. If it's acceptable but you wanted a different set of pictures (eg - a set for a different ability effect) I'd be happy to piece it together.
      • EDIT: I uploaded a new version that gives something of a (false) impression that they're 'fighting' each other, but feel free to revert it if you like the other one better (if at all).Stevehim 16:06, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
      • it's little too busy. I think just a split screencap of Meridith heating up the shipping crate from I Am Become Death plus this image would do much better if we were using that effect for the lead. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 17:58, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
        • The only available pic of Meredith heating up the crate is just her hand, but I did put it together with the one you asked for here. If anyone knows a program to grab stills from the NBC aired eps (assuming that's legal) or anything like that, let me know and I'll try and get one, or maybe Ryan can grab another one that makes it look a bit better. Stevehim 18:11, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
          • Yeah, I want one that shows Merideth and her using her ability, not just her hand. The pic needs to be the standard size in order to look proper, so the images need to be first cut in half such that they still show person and power use, then put together. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 18:21, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
            • I managed to get a screencap of it and (finally) cobble something together withi the specified dimesions here (and I also did it vertically, with Meredith below Ted just in case that would be better suited), but I'm not that big a fan of it, so maybe someone more experienced in image capture/editing can fix it up, or make a better one (not to mention that I'm not even sure I'm allowed to be capturing pics from their episodes without express permission). EDIT: I just noticed the space between her fire and his radiation, so I'm gonna go fix that real quick. Stevehim 19:32, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
              • Sorry for both my continued failure at getting this image to work (especially with regards to the size), and for continuing to bug you about it. I think it's time for me to step aside and let someone who knows what the heck they're doing take over.  :) Stevehim 20:20, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
                • You're fine! :) If you post the Meredith pic by itself, I can probably make it myself the way I want it Thanks for your help! --SacValleyDweller (talk) 20:28, 19 October 2008 (EDT)
                  • Done. I alo have an image of her with more 'container' on the left side if you want, but it's not 450x350. Stevehim 20:38, 19 October 2008 (EDT)

Ready for move?

Is this page ready to be moved to the mainspace and placed on this portal? --SacValleyDweller (talk) 00:51, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

  • I guess it can be moved anytime now into the Mainspace and onto that Template; but remember to not capitalize "homology". Also, there's some things that I mentioned that still need to be added/corrected, imho:
  1. Bliss and horror needs to be removed from "Alter the perceptions of others"
  2. Add body insertion to "Force another to do one's will"
  3. Add a task section for "Survive with little to no oxygen": Meredith's pyrokinesis let her survive low levels in a closed container, Adam's rapid cellular regeneration let him survive inside a coffin, and Bianca's lung adaptation let her breath underwater and through knockout gas.
  4. Add a task section for "See glimpses of the past": Clairsentience gave Bridget this direct ability, Hiro can actually go to the past.
  • --MiamiVolts (talk) 01:09, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Knew about the caps, make the rest my checklist. I'm on the fence with Bliss and Horror being on the alter perceptions one, what tells you definitely no? --SacValleyDweller (talk) 01:14, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
      • With "bliss and horror", the ability doesn't really alter what you see/hear but how you feel emotionally, so it's not in line with the other abilities you mention as altering perception.--MiamiVolts (talk) 11:33, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Both the Bliss and Horror and Body insertion bits are tricky, imo (for the former, it depends on what we mean by perception; for the latter, it's a tough call since it wasn't Peter that used the power....it would depend on if you could put yourself in someone else's body). I definitely agree with Clairsentience, and Space-time manipulation, and we could probably even add Precognition, since Sylar sees the past in his eyes in How to Stop an Exploding Man. I would be remiss if I didn't beat my dead horse some more, and argue that the oxygen levels were not really low in the container being supported by canon.  ;) --Stevehim 01:48, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
      • As for "body insertion", it doesn't matter if you can put yourself in someone else's body... the fact is that the person who is inserted overrides the will of the person he/she is in. I would not add "precognition", since seeing the past in Sylar's eyes was mainly for effect, imho. As far as Stevehim's dead horse is concerned, we go by what is presented and I don't think we've any reason to believe Meredith was lying.--MiamiVolts (talk) 11:33, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
        • The Body insertion thing: The problem is that, while Peter was controlling Jesse's body, it was not due to a use of the power, but rather a side effect of it...that is to say that the power itself was not used to force someone to do one's will... a different character used the power than the one 'forcing one to do one's will; and they certainly had different wills at that point. Jesse was forced to do Peter's will, not Future Peter's, and the former didn't use the ability, having not obtained it. Plus, we don't know what was truly going on with it yet (maybe Jesse was somewhere else). As for the dead horse, Meredith never actually says the air is getting thin...she says she imagines it must be, which fits with her manipulating Claire to make a point. I really don't see any other reason for her to bring up waterboarding torture...it wouldn't make sense as a non-sequitur comment. The Precognition as an effect...I have no problem with that, but it's not listed that way in the Limits section (Sylar) of that page. --Stevehim 17:33, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
          • Yes, body insertion is an indirect means to allow someone else to force someone to do your will, and though it wasn't used necessarily in that capacity, it's a means nonetheless. Also, assuming Meredith isn't affected by the thinning air, she can't sense it getting thin--she can only imagine that it must be. I don't think she's misleading Claire. The way I saw the waterboarding torture comment was that it was just to drive home her point that there's not much Claire can do in this situation, so it must be like torture to her.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:35, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
            • Nice works on the updates, SVD... I would consider the burning apartment Meredith survived a toxic environment, but I guess it's okay if you don't want to add pyrokinesis.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:33, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
              • I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the Pyrokinesis-oxygen issue (though I will ask: why bring up the specific torture about only thinking you're drowning). I'm still not sure on your point about the Body insertion, as it can't (unless used on onesself) be used to force someone to do your will, though it does take away the will of the of the person being displaced out of their body; there is a difference between the two, however subtle (ie - if the category was more general, along the lines of 'remove a person's will,' I'd absolutely agree). --Stevehim 00:31, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
                • Yeah, "remove a person's free will" is probably the best way to clarify it if "body insertion" is to be included. Good thinking. As to the torture comment regarding pyrokinesis, my thought is that it was partly cause Meredith is worried Claire could be subject to more torture from other villains (Sylar's attack was also torture for Claire in a way); the other part was foreshadowing...Meredith herself ended up being tortured by Eric Doyle at the end of the episode.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:47, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
                  • Yeah, the intent was that "one's will" is the will of the user, not a third party like Body insertion involves. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 01:08, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
                    • To clarify, I wasn't opposed to the omission of body insertion and pyrokinesis, just wanted to make sure you understood the reasons they might be added. I understand the counterarguments, but disagree with them.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:41, 25 October 2008 (EDT)

Speculation

  • Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not crazy about this page. I'd be more comfortable with it if the idea of "ability homology" were ever mentioned by the creative staff in an interview, a commentary, or something. Does anybody know of any references?...I'm concerned that it makes certain abilities look like they belong in a family together, or that they're somehow related to each other, which may or may not be the case. It's a well-written article, but personally, I view this whole page as a theory. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 10:10, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I think the page is saying that the abilities are not necessarily related to each other but some have similar effects... I don't see that as speculation. It is a fan-coined term, though, so perhaps fan creations would be a better place? I don't really see it fitting as a theory page, my first thought was to add it as a theme.--MiamiVolts (talk) 12:25, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I didn't see it as a theory when I started this. I saw this as another way to analyze abilities, in league with some of the other pages that analyze abilities. We note that some can be extended, and that some have safety mechanisms for the user, so why not point out here that some abilities can do the same things?--SacValleyDweller (talk) 20:14, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Yeah, I get all that...But other pages that analyze abilities (like ability heredity, ability extension, ability immunity, and others) have been referenced by the show's creators. I don't think we necessarily need to get rid of the page--I quite like it! But I don't think we need to be creating pages about something that might not be a "thing" in Heroes. Sure, a lot of these powers seem like they do the same thing or are related, but some of them might not be. It seems like a fine line. Are there any interviews that you have been able to find where this concept is referenced? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:28, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
        • Well, no, never looked. I guess the $64,000 questions are: What do we do with this page? Does it belong with Abilities or does it go somwhere else? Should I move it back to being my subpage? --SacValleyDweller (talk) 20:41, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
          • Like I said, I like the page. But I'm bringing up the issue for two reasons--one, I'd like to see what we can find from the creative team about the topic; two, I want to make sure we're not making it a habit of creating pages without having some kind of in-world or out-of-world basis for it, other than just our own analysis. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:02, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
            • Ryan, would this make a good BTE question: whether or not we can use the term "homologous" to describe abilities that have similar effects? Also, Ryan and SVD, what do you think about making this a fan creation until we can shed more light on the terminology?--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:33, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
              • BTE: great idea. FC: either way. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:36, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
              • Don't want to, Miami, but I reckon that'd be the best way to go until we get some semblance of officiality on this, so go for it. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 22:40, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
                • Ok, I've moved it. I think it's probably the best compromise for now.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:00, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
                • SVD, since the concept was your idea, I think it's only appropriate we defer to you to sending the BTE question about this. If you'd rather I send it, just let me know.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:28, 27 October 2008 (EDT)
                  • Thanks, though I honestly never thought to do that. I'll try to invent a way to bring it up then If I feel it's important enough. Dunno when though. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 01:32, 27 October 2008 (EDT)

See glimpses of the past

usutu, the "precog" can see glimpses of the past too... we should add that

Peter has also used Precognitive dreaming on two occasions to see the past - he dreamed a past conversation between Charles Deveaux and Angela (How to Stop an Exploding Man) and dreamed his own past (Truth & Consequences). --Elemental Manipulator [ U | T | C ] - When in doubt, ask BTE 01:27, 2 March 2009 (EST)

"Being Unable to Get Hurt"?

First, this doesn't seem like it's phrased correctly; it seems out of place in relation to the other categories. Second, I don't think Baron Samedi's power and rapid cell regeneration have anything in common; RCR doesn't stop you from getting hurt, it only guarantees you'll recover. Samedi's (as yet unseen) power seems more in line with metal manipulation/transmogrification. Product Placement 19:39, 25 November 2008 (EST)

Force another to do one's will

I'm not sure telekinesis should apply. Sylar is able to manipulate someone's limbs using telekinesis, but that's not exactly the same. If we extend it to things like that, then illusion should be included (Candice forced Micah to go with Linderman by pretending she was Niki), and probably everything else as well (Ted 'forces' the Bennet's to do what he wants by threatening to blow up. It's been implied that Elle 'forces' others to tell her what she needs to know by shocking/torturing them. etc). --Stevehim 20:53, 28 November 2008 (EST) take note: you can choose to take the lightning/die by an explosion/not follow instructions but if your body is being pushed around by telekinesis you have no choice. --{:User:UrNoob/sig}} 01:27, 26 January 2009 (EST)

Other suggestions

Should levitation be listed under 'Lift one's self from the ground?' I don't recall if it was ever shown to be used in that way, but it should be able to accomplish the task.

And (restating from above) if we're including anything that manipulates a person into doing one's will (like telekinesis), I think at the least illusion should be included (Candice uses it to trick Micah into coming with her, tricks Noah into revealing his allegiance, etc). Other things like Ted using his power to 'threaten' the Bennets into doing his will or Elle using her power to torture people into doing hers should probably be included as well, though they're a bit more speculative. If the intent of the section was to include powers that can make people do 'anything' against their will, then telekinesis should be removed, as all it is good for in that respect is limb control.

Also, clicking on the TOC doesn't seem to work to take one to individual sections. I'm not sure how to fix this (or even if it is fixable since it's all on one table). --Stevehim 17:03, 10 December 2008 (EST)

  • On levitation: No. A theoretical use of an ability does not belong here. It wasn't shown used for that anyway.
    On your 2nd point: Trickery by Illusion or Intimidation by any scary ability do not count. There is still responsibility for the reactions on the part of the target. The intention was that the user of the power has the capability to force another to do at least something against their will. If we're talking anything, then TK AND Puppet Master would be removed because with neither can you place a decision, like "Tell Bob to shoot Sam" or "Do not give me that speeding ticket, Mr Policeman" into the target's mind without intimidation.
    There are no sections to the page, the TOC is intended to jump people to certain cells in the table. That's all working last I checked.--SacValleyDweller (talk) 22:58, 10 December 2008 (EST)
    • It might be my computer then (old computer, Windows 2000, IE 6.0), because the TOC doesn't jump anywhere (that's actually what I meant...to cells in the table  :)). As for forcing others to do something against their wills, I still see a few powers that might fall into that category. Mental manipulation forces one to pass out and/or lose their memories against their wills; power absorption forces one to lose their powers against their wills; space-time manipulation has been sued to send people places against their wills. These may not be physical actions, but they are things that are forced (and stretching it even further, cases could be made for poison emission (forcing one to collapse and die), bliss and horror (forcing one to feel certain emotions) and gravitational manipulation (forcing one to disappear into some other dimension), and possibly others (eg - does Julien controlling his clones count?)). Note, I am not saying these should necessarily be added, but they should possibly be considered; especially mental manipulation and STM. --Stevehim 01:17, 11 December 2008 (EST)
  • Someone should go ahead and add Accelerated probability to the list. I notice it could go under Super speed and Release electrical arcs. I would do this, but since I'm not too familiar with everything yet... I don't want to screw it up. --OutbackZack 01:34, 11 December 2008 (EST)OutbackZack

Emit toxic substances

How about, "emit toxic substances" for chlorine gas exudation, acid secretion, poison emission, and nerve gas emission?--Radicell 08:10, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Affect other's abilities

Maybe Ability supercharging and Mental manipulation ^^ Henryp 14:29, 21 December 2008

  • Perhaps puppet master as well, Doyle was able to force Michael to kill himself with his own laser emission. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 14:53, 21 December 2008 (EST)
    • No. True, they affect abilities, but the way they affect the abilities of others aren't even similar. Puppet master can force the use of an ability against the will of the possessor, Supercharging can only amplify the abilities of another, and Mental manip does the opposite, shuts all abilities down. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 01:07, 22 December 2008 (EST)

Change of article type

Why is this page still a fan creation. It's really good and should be a regular page in the mainspace. --Elemental Manipulator [ U | T | C ] - When in doubt, ask BTE 04:38, 22 February 2009 (EST)

If it goes to mainspace I'll put it in my ability disambig page. --Elemental Manipulator [ U | T | C ] - When in doubt, ask BTE 05:09, 22 February 2009 (EST)

  • I thought it was good enough to be put in with the rest of the ability analysis articles at Portal:Abilities) when I created the page, but, said the community, it want an explicit enough concept in the show to be placed there. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 01:16, 25 February 2009 (EST)

Manipulate vegetation

  • Should Tracy and Linderman really be there? I can see the argument for Linderman a bit more than that for Tracy, but he's not able to do anything other than heal, so it's not really the same as Brendan or Au Co. And putting Tracy there certainly opens up the floodgates. If freezing is manipulation of the flower, then almost anything else could be used in a similar manner: pyrokineses (burn it), acid secretion ("erode" it), disintegration (disintegrate it), space-time manipulation (take it with one to other times/freeze it in time), weather control (obliterate it), etc etc etc. At the very least, Tracy should be removed, imo, but realistically Linderman should be also, as he can only affect plants that are injured. --Stevehim 17:26, 2 May 2009 (EDT)
    • I agree, the point of the page is to list similar things, freezing and healing are not similar and definitionally not similar to Plant manipulation. The freezing and healing were only effecting the plant not manipulating it so I'll go ahead and remove them. Besides if we were allowing simple effecting this page would not be about ability homology and you could add almost any ability anywhere based on potential uses e.g. Freezing under Manipulate technology with freezing being used to overclock a processor. The Light6 09:36, 13 June 2009 (EDT)

Preventing an ability being use: puppet master

I don't class this ability as in the same use as the Haitain. I could think of some abilities could work whereas Mental manipulation would stop these: Telepath, technopath, space-time manipulation, rapid cell regeneration, telekinesis, teleportation, precognition, lie dection and clairvoyance These are some abilities that could be use against Doyle when he uses his power against them. I know Rachel was being careful about using her power, this was after she got a text from Miach or another Rebel member in one of the comic books.{50000JH}

Update

This needs to be updated, mainly with animal control, fire breathing, metal duplication and any other of the most recently added abilities, I'm busy updating other relevant pages and templates. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 20:49, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

Just Wondering..

Where it says, Affect human memory - shouldn't Charlie's ability be there? Because her ability does kind of affect human memory. It enhanced it. And if it shouldn't. That's okay, just asking. --Scorvi12 07:14, 23 December 2009 (EST)

  • It affects her memory. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 07:23, 23 December 2009 (EST)
    • But isn't she a human? It affects Human memory. --Scorvi12 07:25, 23 December 2009 (EST)
      • You're right. I've added it. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 07:51, 23 December 2009 (EST)
        • She's an evolved human. René can erase memories from both humans and evolved humans. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 07:53, 23 December 2009 (EST)
          • You mean, the memory affecting category only includes abilities which affect memories of others, not their users? Green.gif AltesUTC CH 07:59, 23 December 2009 (EST)