Talk:Electromagnetism/Archive 3

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Electric propulsion

  • Electromagnetism is not the only type of electric propulsion. I see no reason not to merge this back with lightning. -Lөvөl 13:54, 29 November 2007 (EST)
    • Wikipedia lists the others as a) electrostatic, b) electrothermal and c) vacuum arc thrusters... a) electrostatic force is the force between subatomic particles... The Agent isn't microscopic, he's not using a stream of particles to levitate, and he's not charging the ground; b) electrothermal is described as using electromagnetic fields to heat a plasma to heat yet another propellant... no plasma or other propellant on the Agent, and this method still uses electromagnetism indirectly' c) vacuum arc thrusters require a vacuum... and the Agent is not in outer space. Electromagnetism is the only rl force known to cause said levitation. Think MagLev trains.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:09, 29 November 2007 (EST)
      • MagLev's use two objects with the same magnetic charge (the track and the train), electricity works the same. Opposites attract and likes repel. Electric repulsion can and does happen as can be seen with some affects of a Van de Graaff generator, or even by rubbing two balloons in your hair and holding them near each other. The Agent doesn't have to charge the ground, just have the same charge, and how do you know he isn't charging the ground? Electric levitation is just as possible as magnetic levitation, it is just unstable and more dangerous. And it is called lightning in the graphic novel. -Lөvөl 04:31, 5 December 2007 (EST)
        • Van de Graff generators and rubbing two balloons together are good examples of static repulsion. With a Van de Graaff generator, if you hold your hand on the metal conductor of the generator, your hair rises and you are okay; but if you remove your hand just a bit, you get shocked as the electric particles must then connect to you through the air (don't try this at home kids, it's not fun). Thus, if it is static repulsion the lightning should be flowing from his hands to the ground at all times to keep him in the air and it isn't. Also, if his power was somehow magically charging the ground, that would quickly be felt by those on the ground. And again, as you mentioned, static repulsion is an unstable form of repulsion, not very suitable for levitating in the air as the Agent clearly was. Future Peter calls his own ability "lightning" in the GN, and I agree Future Peter's ability should be named thus. But since Peter didn't levitate like the Agent, the Agent's power must be assumed a different ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 08:00, 5 December 2007 (EST)
          • The arcs would happen when there are parts of the objects that have opposite charges, it would happen frequently but not necessarily constantly. It would be easier to use electric levitation then to levitate in the earth's magnetic field, as earth's magnetic field is too weak locally to even levitate a very powerful magnet, in order for it to work the object would have to have a very large magnetic field. The insatiability would mean he would have to be constantly adjusting the field, not that it wouldn't work. It is actually easier to explain the Agent's levitation by electricity, then it is to explain Elle's "sharp shooting", witch would require the two objects to be the strongest oppositely charged objects in the area, with nothing between them to interfere or conduct. Ted could produce an EM pulse, Peter hasn't, it doesn't mean they are different powers. -Lөvөl 12:16, 5 December 2007 (EST)
            1. It would be constantly cause if the Agent was charging a portion of the ground and himself to match it as you suggest, then the uncharged ground closest to him would create an arc, not necessarily only towards him but potentially also towards the sky. There's also the problem of a charge affecting the others on the ground, which isn't a problem for magnetism. The earth is already one large magnet, so theoretically the Agent just has to have a strong enough magnetic field around himself to levitate. There is some cool info. about diamagnetism research performed at a Netherlands university, that shows how they made frogs levitate.--MiamiVolts (talk) 13:10, 5 December 2007 (EST)
            2. With Ted, we saw him use radioactivity first. If Ted's first action with his ability was the EM pulse, we might have thought the radioactivity was a bonus effect and not the main power. With the Agent, we don't have the advantage to know which came first (the levitation or the lightning bolts), so we need to assume they came at the same time.--MiamiVolts (talk) 13:10, 5 December 2007 (EST)
            3. And as for Elle's ability, this is fiction, so you have to suspend a certain amount of disbelief. My thought is that Elle charges herself and her target to opposite polarity in order to generate the lightning.--MiamiVolts (talk) 13:10, 5 December 2007 (EST)
              1. After more research it appears I was wrong, arcs would not be frequent or constant, with a properly managed field over a wide enough area, they would not happen unless something interfered. Yes it would affect others on the ground, which for the most part would be minor, but if they got in the way they would get struck. Magnetism could work but it would not just have to be strong enough, but large enough to displace the energy equivalent of the geomagnetic field needed to overcome gravity, see here.
              2. The Agent demonstrated the ability to manipulate electricity and Peter called it Lightning. The Agent did not demonstrate any other magnetic properties, it is speculation to say his ability had anything to do with magnetism.
              3. I think that is the way Elle's ability works, which I also think is the same way the Agent's ability works. It is fiction, I do have to suspend disbelief, which means they could say it was magnetism, forcefields, etc., they said Lightning. I just wish they did somethings with Elle a little more realistic, it wouldn't be to hard.
            • Now I want to do some experimenting, but the ground may be too wet with snow and water to be safe. -Lөvөl 17:03, 10 December 2007 (EST)
              • 2. Peter produced an ability from his hands that shot out electricity, but he didn't levitate. Thus, he didn't replicate the Agent's ability and henceforth didn't name it. It is speculation to claim that the lightning he described could not have come from one of the other escaped prisoners. As further proof, in Powerless, Peter was able to send thoughts back to Matt, so it appears Peter should absorb whatever level of experience of power is present in the person he absorbs it from. Thus, if Peter was to meet Maury, he should be able to replicate his visual (more advanced) telepathy.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:33, 10 December 2007 (EST)
                • Peter didn't send his thoughts to Matt, that was just him talking to Matt in his head, the same way that Noah did to Matt when they were breaking out of the company's prison. --Piemanmoo 22:15, 25 December 2007 (EST)
                  • How do we know this for sure? We don't. It could be either. It's actually more reasonable to say that Peter projected his thoughts. Matt projects thoughts, then Peter copies him. --Ice Vision (talk) 22:19, 25 December 2007 (EST)
                  • But from what we know Peter has only ever read thoughts, not sent them. Since we can't prove if he sent his thoughts to Matt or not, we'll have to assume that the sound what just Matt hearing them, not peter sending them out.--Piemanmoo 14:59, 26 December 2007 (EST)
                    • Yeah, but Peter mimicked telepathy. He has that power. This means that he can do whatever Matt can do, which includes projecting thoughts into others' minds. We can't prove either, but since it's consistent to say that they projected thoughts into each other, it's the most probable scenario. Is it irrational to say that Peter unlocked a new aspect of telepathy after Matt tries to uses that same aspect against him? --Ice Vision (talk) 15:13, 26 December 2007 (EST)
                • Even if it is probable, it's still just speculation. --Piemanmoo 15:19, 26 December 2007 (EST)
                  • True, just like your statement. --Ice Vision (talk) 15:25, 26 December 2007 (EST)

Lightning?

  • I might be wrong but doesn't Peter call this ability Lightning in the graphic novel? I know that there has been a discussion about Lightning earlier on but no one seem to do anything with that discussion, why was electromagnetism chosen? -- Futurepeter ( U - T - C ) 07:08, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Read this archive topic, which addresses exactly that. If you still have questions, I'll restate the reasons.--MiamiVolts (talk) 12:07, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
      • So, the levitational aspect of this ability caused it to name it "Electromagnetism" if i understand correctly. Thanx! -- Futurepeter ( U - T - C ) 08:51, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
        • To bring attention to this topic again, I have to point out that we're relying heavily on what people say in some places and not so much in others. For Lightning, we have arguments against renaming it because Peter described it as Lightning. Here, we're going with a descriptive even though Peter explicitly called it Lightning. We're contradicting ourselves and discombobulating (wow, it wasn't underlined in red, that's a real word!) the naming conventions and our standards. For the arguments here that state it should be listed differently with a descriptive name because it has levitation, may I direct you to Enhanced strength and Accelerated probability. The former has a variation that requires fear. The latter has a variation that produces "Lighting". This variant of Lightning involves Levitation. We've lost consistency somewhere. Can anybody find it?--Riddler 01:04, 6 December 2008 (EST)
          • The difference is this ability has something extra that is produced. When this ability was named, the paradigm we were working in was that every character only has one single ability and that byproducts were not possible. Now that paradigm is forever shattered due to Brendan Lewis's and Edward's abilities having other abilities as byproducts. So it might be appropriate to rename this lightning and add levitation as a byproduct, and I'm not opposed to compromise and allow this rename/split if we can keep lightning as being Edward's ability too. What do you guys think? Sound like a good plan?--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:18, 6 December 2008 (EST)
            • That sounds good. But I'm not liking these "By products" to be totally honest, though that's probably a discussion for another page. ...But what page?--Riddler 01:23, 6 December 2008 (EST)
          • After reading the previous discussion, I guess I'll throw my two cents in. The powers should be merged for the reasons stated. We don't consider Sylar (in all probability) using his telekinesis as a method of levitation (and healing) as worthy of calling those effects byproudcts, so I don't see why we would here. This is, after all, Heroes, and so it is entirely possible that lightning can allow a person to levitate (so it's just a function of the 'Lightning' ability, much as it is of telekinesis). But it even has a theoretical basis in reality, since electric currents inherrently produce magnetic fields (and vice versa). So, electromagnetism could just be another way the Agent was using his lightning ability. It's very much speculation to say that lightning cannot be used to levitate, especially in the realm of Heroes, so I don't quite see why this ability was separated from lightning based on how it was used, especially when it is specifically named. --Stevehim 11:34, 6 December 2008 (EST)
  • So, there is no opposition?--Riddler 16:48, 7 December 2008 (EST)
    • Wait, we're still debating on whether to keep byproducts at all or call them aspects or something else at User talk:Riddler/Ability byproducts. Until we agree, this can't be moved. Stevehim, the same thing can be said about levitation. How do we know that the agent's levitative aspect of his ability doesn't allow him to produce lightning? There is no way to tell which part is the core aspect of the ability. Sure, we can guess, but should we? We're debating this on that talk page and until we agree please do not move this page. Thanks.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:10, 7 December 2008 (EST)
      • Whether or not Levitation is the core ability or Lightning is, and the other is a byproduct, is irrelevant to this name change. The move is based on what the ability was called; "Lightning." We can't assume anything else because it WAS explicitly named. The byproduct/aspect debate will occur either way.--Riddler 17:13, 7 December 2008 (EST)
        • We've already covered that Riddler. We decided on electromagnetism over lightning because it encompassed both abilities. Peter also called his own ability lightning and he's never used it to levitate, so calling it lightning would be to claim it was the same ability. I think what we should be discussing now regarding this is whether to note the aspects/byproducts/whathaveyou in this ability's infobox and the other ability's infoboxes.--MiamiVolts (talk) 18:11, 7 December 2008 (EST)
          • We've covered it, but we're creating an inconsistency. Instead of going with a higher level of canon, we're naming it based on an extra aspect or byproduct, which is wrong. Whether it's an aspect or byproduct is irrelevant. Peter called it Lightning, and thus it takes the second level of the naming convention. We have to rename this if we want to keep true to our standards. Either way Levitation will be noted. --Riddler 22:52, 7 December 2008 (EST)
            • Actually, it's not an inconsistency. We get to take into account what we saw in the graphic novel, not just what we read, and seeing him levitate is also at the second level of the naming convention. This is a similar situation to the Haitian's ability and Hiro's ability: we know there's two aspects to each ability and we assume they must be part of one core ability, hence we came up with ways to combine them to one name that make sense.--MiamiVolts (talk) 23:29, 7 December 2008 (EST)
        • Miami...don't worry, I certainly wouldn't move the page on my own. :) I understand it was debated, but it seems a huge inconsistency to me to call this ability electromagnetism. It's entirely speculative (never used once, anywhere, in any kind of source), and Peter specifically calls it lightning. That he didn't use the levitation part of it is, to me, immaterial. I think Peter using it as lightning is enough to assume that's the main ability, and is less speculative than dubbing it electromagnetism, simply because the agent is levitating. We assume that the female agent is able to walk on walls as a side effect of her speed, rather than claiming she has two abilities, so I don't see why we wouldn't do that with the "electric" agent as well. And I certainly don't think that there was another source for the lightning Peter came up with. There were only three agents in the yard, iirc. There was the woman with super speed, the "electric" agent, and the big guy. And we know someone was blocking space-time manipulation, so it's likely it was him; otherwise someone had several powers (which is another possibility for the lightning/levitation thing). Again, we list Sylar's apparent levitation and healing as side effects of his telekinesis, even though we know that he has other powers we have yet to see. I agree with Riddler...this page should be merged with Lightning, and a note should be added in the agent's section that it was used to levitate. Or, if we're not sure which power he had (and not willing to connect them), we can list him on both the levitation and lightning pages (though, imo, it was obvious that the lightning was the main ability). Either way, I think electromagnetism is complete speculation, and inconsistent with our naming conventions (as Peter specifically names it). --Stevehim 23:46, 7 December 2008 (EST)
          • First, if we just went by what people said, we wouldn't be documenting the entire graphic novels, which is both words and pictures. So what we see is as valuable as what is said as it places context to what is said. In the Walls graphic novels, I think Peter's calling his version of the ability lightning, not the agent's. It isn't immaterial that Peter didn't levitate because the other agent was always shown in the air until he got knocked out. In this situation, all of the people locked up in the facility that are being rescued have abilities so it is conceivable that one of them had pure lightning or that Peter had encountered Elle previously. So except for the debate on whether or not to use "byproducts" and "aspects" to split up the ability, all of these arguments have been presented and answered before and are in this discussion's archive. Also in the archive, it is explained how the term electromagnetism also works for the levitation aspect.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:12, 8 December 2008 (EST)
            • I'm not ignoring what we see; I just don't think the agent levitating in the three or four panels means that he has no choice but to stay airborne when using his power. The way Peter said it, it was an ability he'd just gained at that moment, not something he'd had previously, and so would fall on one of the three agents he was facing. I read most of the archive, and understand much of this was brought up already (though I don't recall Sylar's 'byproducts' being addressed, nor the fact that the woman runs on walls being assumed to be a function of her speed ability), but I wasn't really around for the intial discussion, and so am voicing my opinion on why this is inconsistent with our naming policy, especially considering the current discussion about whether to call Elle's ability lightning or electric manipulation.
I consider Peter's comment to be as much of a naming of the ability as anything we've cited in that argument, and I doubt he was randomally naming/noticing something he'd acquired at some previous point in time (which is pure speculation anyway). We have listed Future Peter as having mimicked electromagnetism from the guard so, at the very least, that is an absolute contradiction to the argument that it's a different power from the agent's, and should be changed if you believe it is. If it's the same ability, then he clearly names it lightning and this page should be merged with the lightning one, imho. And a person doesn't have to use every aspect of an ability to demonstrate it. For instance, not only did we give Peter telepathy long before he was able to put thoughts in other people's heads, he has yet to demonstrate the 'dream' aspect of it. Yet we still assume he has the full power.
The two main archived arguments against the merge seem to be:
  1. People don't have more than one ability
  2. Lightning doesn't account for the levitation aspect
The first point has already been disproved with more current information. As for the second point, we have assumed byproducts in plenty of other places (healing/levitation for Sylar's TK, super speed/lightning for Edward's AP, ability to walk on walls for the agent's super speed, ability to sense fear for Knox's enhanced strength, etc) --Stevehim 03:37, 8 December 2008 (EST)
  • The biggest reason nothing was done with the name of the page was that there were only two people discussing it with opposite opinions. I would say that levitation has more to do with lightning (like ball lightning) then lightning has to do with a person sending out electricity. Electrostatic levitation does exist and it can account for the levitation aspect. As to whether someone copying a power has to show all aspects of the power, Sylar very often uses telekinesis to pin people to walls and cut heads open, Peter rarely does these and the first few times he used telekinesis he only deflected or stopped objects. -Lөvөl 04:02, 8 December 2008 (EST)
    • Level, TK is a bad example, cause the slicing people's heads open is symptomatic of intuitive aptitude, not TK. See also my archived discussion on the different forms of levitation. Stevehim, if Peter used both aspects of the agent's ability (levitation and lightning), then we could say he was using the Walls agent's ability, but when he doesn't and the guy is right in front of him, that makes assuming he's naming the entire ability and not just an aspect suspect to me. However, I do agree it's speculative now to say he was mimicking it and not someone else's ability. It was assumed earlier in this discussion that Peter did copy the agent's ability because the guy was in front of him and Peter showed an aspect of it--but back then we didn't know that when Peter encounters and knows someone is using multiple aspects of an ability (like when he and Matt began sending thoughts to each other's minds), he mimics all aspects he knows of automatically. But I already know the counter argument--that the writer back then didn't know that, and to assume he did is also speculation... where does that leave us? With leaving things the same.--MiamiVolts (talk) 14:13, 8 December 2008 (EST)
      • How do we know that Peter mimics all aspects (that he knows of) of a power automatically? That seems very speculative to me. Future Peter is credited as having mental manipulation, but he didn't display the 'power blocking' aspect of it (iirc), though he most certainly knew about it. Peter hasn't displayed the 'dream state' aspect of telepathy, though I suppose you might argue he is unaware of it (I don't recall offhand if he was ever present for Matt recounting that aspect of the ability). He was also aware of what intuitive aptitude was (his future self told him), but was unable to 'automatically' access it; he needed Future Gabriel to help him. Peter from the explosion future mimics the agent's super speed, but is not seen to use it to defy gravity (walk on walls...though I know the counterargument is that this is a symptom, not an aspect). We really don't know that Peter automatically exhibits all aspects of abilities he absorbs (that he knows of), and it's very speculative to say he does. Without training from Claude, he wasn't even able to access the main aspects of his acquired abilities, much less secondary aspects of them. And even if he is able to, he doesn't have to. Regardless of all of this, I'm not sure why we'd have to leave something the same. We change things as new information presents itself all the time. --Stevehim 14:52, 8 December 2008 (EST)
        • Is it speculative? I mean, first, Peter doesn't even *see* Claude until after he is able to copy Claude's ability such that he can see him. The Haitian's ability negation is a bad example cause Peter cannot witness the blocking and copy it while it is active like he can do with other abilities cause the blocking blocks his ability to copy. Also, Peter couldn't use intuitive aptitude until after Sylar helped him cause he needed to be in Sylar's presence while it was being used. Regarding walking on Walls, you already gave the counter argument. Are there any other examples where Peter has witnessed an ability being used and then only used part of it while the other person was still using it in his presence??? Now, as for leaving it the same cause the writer likely didn't know about it, that's not my argument and I'm not defending it. I'm just pointing it out cause it's been mentioned before.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:40, 8 December 2008 (EST)
          • I will try to state some facts with out speculation. 1 The agent is first seen producing electricity and levitating. 2 The agent is shown attacking with lightning twice while standing on the ground. 3 Peter hits the agent says "Thanks." "Lightning. That ought to come in handy." and attacks the big agent with lightning while standing on the ground. 4 Peter then uses fire while fighting the speedster and says "well, Thanks to our quality time together, I'm as fast as you are." and they run off. The agent is seen standing on the ground, he attacks with lightning from off panel (it does look like it is coming from above), he is then levitating on the next panels before he is knocked out. Did I miss anything important? -Lөvөl 16:53, 8 December 2008 (EST)
            • Thanks, Level. 1. yes 2. the agent's feet are never shown touching the ground, someone has mentioned before that from the perspective shown, it appears in a couple places as if he could be on the ground but since his feet are not clearly shown (or shown at all in those cases) and the guy is also floating sometimes just a couple inches off the ground it's hard to tell. 3. Peter hits 'an' agent. I guess it's the same agent that was shooting lightning bolts at him, but we don't see his face. 4. Peter's quote with the speedster girl is "well, Thanks to our quality time together, I'm as fast as you are."--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:25, 8 December 2008 (EST)
              • Peter's feet are not shown when using it either and he is in a very similar pose, which looks like they are standing on the ground to me. It is possible that they have to be on the ground to use it, or they both were levitating, but you can't see their feet, or Peter just didn't have time or a reason to levitate. -Lөvөl 03:22, 9 December 2008 (EST)
                • Peter's feet appear to me like they are on the ground when he first says 'Lightning. That ought to come in handy.' and begins shooting lightning bolts, but they are not shown at all thereafter when he does so and it's not a very clear perspective (Hiro's arm partially blocks the view), so that's one reason Peter is still listed as a user of the ability. Myself, I'd think Peter would have said something like 'Lightning and levitation, a two for one deal. Cool.' or something similar if he had been able to levitate, but he didn't reference the levitation at all and they never showed Peter's feet leave the ground.--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:56, 9 December 2008 (EST)

Instances

It is completely speculative (imo) to say that Peter always exhibits all aspects of a power (as long as he's aware of them) immediately upon absorption. Going down the list of the powers he's mimicked, many would fail to meet that criteria. Some of them were used without Peter even knowing he had them (eg - Flight, Phasing, RCR, etc), some were not able to be reproduced without training (eg - telekinesis), and for some he did not exhibit all aspects of the power upon getting it (eg - STM, intuitive aptitude, telepathy). As for intuitive aptitude, why would Peter have to be around Sylar when he was using the power to absorb it? That's inconsistent with how empathic mimcry works, and I can't think of anything that was said that indicates that to be the case. We know that Peter was unable to use it until he learned how, but I thought it was generally agreed upon that he absorbed IA in Homecoming. With regards to the overall discussion here, I think it would be really obtuse writing for Peter to say... "Lightning. That ought to come in handy."... and have this be referring to some power he had previously obtained, especially when there's an agent in the yard firing lightning from his hands. --Stevehim 17:42, 8 December 2008 (EST)

  • Ok, we're looking for an ability that Peter witnesses being used in its totality and then only uses part of it while the other person was still using all of it in his presence. Let's go through your list one at a time... flight, when Nathan flew in Season One to rescue Peter when he jumped off a building, he later told Peter that Peter flew also... Peter later went to Mohinder and told him that he had the power to do what other people could do, but only when he was with them. This didn't change until Claude trained him to recall abilities. Phasing wasn't used in Peter's presence, he simply absorbed it by being close to DL and discovered it later, so irrelevant. RCR he used the first time by being near Claire when she too was healing from some scrapes, more confirmation there. Regarding STM from Hiro, Peter only witnessed Hiro freezing time so didn't know at first that there were other aspects to the ability; he ended up discovering the other aspects later and had he froze time when Hiro froze time when they first met, we wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Telepathy I already covered in previous message. Intuitive aptitude wasn't used in front of Peter to learn anything until Sylar used it to explain how it worked. Peter didn't know what Sylar's ability was, just that he needed it. Peter had likely absorbed a lot of powers before losing his ability, but without being able to tie them to an emotion or a face, he wasn't able to use them--that's my impression of how he explained his empathic mimicry working when he was with Claude.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:08, 9 December 2008 (EST)
    • It seems to me you're coming up with different arguments for each individual instance. Looking at Peter's list most of the powers there do not fall under your specification, for one reason or another. That's beside the point anyway, since evidence needs to be shown that Peter automatically mimics all forms of an ability he knows of, not the other way around. The bottom line (from my POV) is that there is no reason to assume that Peter is somehow forced to mimic all aspects of an ability he witnesses, or not have that ability. It's complete speculation to say so (I'd point out that correlation is not causation, but there's barely even corelation here). All of this aside, why would we assume the agent has a new ability that's never named as opposed to two different abilities? --Stevehim 02:26, 9 December 2008 (EST)
      • The statement I made was what I seem to be seeing as the trend with his ability and multi-power users, not that there are many multi-power users for us to judge him by. If Peter gets his powers back in the next episode and then meets someone like Santiago or Edward, it would be easier to tell. Also, saying that the agent has two different abilities goes against what Kring said was true at the time--that every evolved human had just one ability. I'm no longer thinking that what he said it is definitely still valid though, and whether or not we should still apply it has arguments on both sides. In this case, I've been asking for discussion about adding byproducts list of lightning and levitation to this page, or something similar, but the main reply has just been a desire to simply merge it completely with lightning and get rid of this page and any reference to byproducts. That's not much of a compromise.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:50, 9 December 2008 (EST)
        • I'd be up for classifying things as byproducts, just not to this page, as it shouldn't (imo) exist. I thought someone (maybe you) might have mentioned something about there being an interview comparing this to Elle's ability in which magnetism was mentioned. I'm not sure where it is, and if you could point me to it, I'd appreciate it (and possibly reform my opinion). Until then, I see no evidence of electromagentism being a power, of magnetism being the way the agent necessarily levitates, or that we need to make a whole new power for what is essentially an aspect of already known and literally named ability. As it stands, I could see levitation being added as a note or byproduct to the lightning page. As for what we were talking about, let's look at the theoretical example you proposed. Let's say Peter (having gotten his empathic mimicry back) saw Edward zip behind the serious looking woman, heard him describe his accelerated probability to her, and then saw Edward electrocute her. Let's then say that Peter came out to talk to Edward and tried to calculate a probability of something during that time. Would his super speed and lightning automatically 'go off,' causing him to run really fast and fire off a bolt of lightning? --Stevehim 03:05, 9 December 2008 (EST)
          • There was a BTE (in S2?) which someone asked if Elle's ability was at all like the Agent from Walls with electromagnetic powers. The writers said that; no, she's no magneto, but technically, they were spoon fed the ability name so that doesn't really count to me, but others did seize on it. Take a look for yourself. One way we might work a compromise is to have levitation listed as a possible byproduct on the lightning page and lightning listed as a possible byproduct on the levitation page. That would cover both aspects of the ability and would remove the speculation. However, that's not an option anyone else seems willing to consider. As for the example, Santiago and Edward don't literally try and calculate a probability, they simply see probabilities when traveling super fast / slowing down time. What I would think would happen (and again this is all speculation) in your hypothetical situation, is after Peter witnessed all that and had not already absorbed any aspect of the ability, if a dozen bullets get shot at Peter, he would slow down time, see a path to dodge them and run in that path, and when he finished running, his hands would be sparking somewhat with static electricity. Your hypothetical situation is not akin to Walls, where the agent is only shown using both aspects at the same time. To be akin, Edward would have to be running super fast and shooting electricity at the same time when Peter witnessed it. Assuming no interaction with previous absorptions, Peter would then likely have to run super fast and use lightning at the same time to mirror Edward's use of the ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:27, 9 December 2008 (EST)

Physics

Taking physics into account, there should be no reason someone with enough control over electricity couldn't levitate with enough electromagnetic propulsion. Heck, Ted made an EMP one time so who knows. In any case, I dont think we should consider the levitation to be an "aspect" of the agent's ability, but rather just a "interesting note" of it. Let's put it this way: For example, let's assume that the agent and Elle have the same power. On his page we could put "lightning" and the "byproducts of the ability: levitation". But I doubt that would work, not just because we used that name for Abu's ability, but because nobody else has shown self-levitation by itself and itself only before. If we look at Knox, his page doesnt say "enhanced strength" and then "byproducts of the ability: fear sensing" (or whatever you want to call it). It's because (a)nobody has fear-sensing by itself and (b)people like Niki have used it without that aspect before. Santiago and Brendan have both had other people with thier aspects alone before, while Knox hasn't. So we could simply keep it as a note that his ability does things slightly differently, while still keeping it at the same ability.

tl;dr: we should do it like Knox/Niki's powers are, instead of brendan/claire's powers. Here's an example of how I think it might work.--Piemanmoo 18:31, 7 December 2008 (EST)

  • So you want to list the wall's agent on the lightning/electric manipulation page, but you don't list the limits for him there and instead want to keep this page separate as electromagnestism? That's omitting information, which doesn't sound like a good plan to me. See Riddler's userpage discussion for what I suggested.--MiamiVolts (talk) 19:12, 7 December 2008 (EST)
  • In order to levitate with the earths magnetic field, he would have to have a very large magnetic field himself. To levitate by electrostatic levitation, he would need another object (like a spot of ground) with an equal same charge, which is similar to what would be needed to shoot lightning, an object with an opposite charge. -Lөvөl 04:02, 8 December 2008 (EST)
  • Magnetic fields are inherrent properties of charged particles. People don't have magnetic fields around then because the magnetic fields of our electrons cancel each other out, yielding no net, or permanent, magnetic field. Someone emitting lightning would certainly also be emitting a magnetic field (and so the agent's levitation might not even be controllable). Technically, to 'levitate,' you would need to produce enough force to counteract gravitational force, or what is essentially 'normal force' (think of jumping up in the air and then exactly equaling the force pulling you back down at the height you levitate at). Just for reference (and in case anyone feels like having a go at figuring out the numbers), the magnetic field at the Earth's surface is 10^ -4 Teslas. --Stevehim 04:57, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Difference between This Ability and Hiros

We should merge these two abilities Electromagnetism and Lightning. (regardless of whether Lightning gets renamed to Electrical Manipulation or not); and handle it just like we do Space-time manipulation. Hiro has manifested all three aspects/characteristics (Time Stop, Time Travel, and Teleportation); and it is listed so. However, Tracy Chobhan and Manuel Garcia are only noted as having the Teleportation aspect. Yet Space-time manipulation isn't split over two or three different powers; it is listed as one power. It could easily be merged and listed as the following: Electric Manipulation --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 12/8/2008 17:38 (EST)

  • The German has control over magnetism, Elle has control over electricity. As we know, these are but two aspects of the electro-magnetic force. However, neither has ever demonstrated any aptitude with the second part of the power. If one were to extrapolate a growth of power over time, it is possible that both The German and Elle could develop control over Electromagnetism as a whole. Of course, they're both dead.--Dumpster juice 18:00, 8 December 2008 (EST)
    • Though Sylar still has lightning, so who knows, we may yet find out if that's true, DJ. Till then, I disagree about merging the abilities. Hiro has space-time manipulation. Likely, we shouldn't merge teleportation with Hiro's ability just cause it's just an aspect of Hiro's ability. We don't know that the teleporter would ever have gained the ability to time travel (and we'll likely never know now since he's supposedly dead).--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:40, 9 December 2008 (EST)
      • I also agree as well with the fact teleportation and Hiro's ability shouldn't be merge. To assume that someone who can teleport can travel through time would be speculative. It would also be speculative to assume that they bend space and time to teleport. All we know is that they get from point A to point B in a split second. Nothing more nothing less. Well except for the fact that when a teleporter dies their body fades in and out (Into the Wild part 3).--OutbackZack 13:53, 9 December 2008 (EST)OutbackZack

Explicitness trumps all?

Ok, based on Admin's new policy that explicitness trumps all perspective, this ability should be merged with electric manipulation. Shouldn't it?--MiamiVolts (talk) 13:42, 9 December 2008 (EST)

  • Based on that, this would now be Lightning while the other is Electric manipulation. Though I'd rather them merged. Just going by your logic though.--Riddler 15:54, 9 December 2008 (EST)
  • Is there a source that explicitly says this character has "electric manipulation?" Also, explicitness doesn't trump all, but it is a weighing factor. An explicit name given by a magazine article isn't as likely to trump a name we've picked out of an episode for instance. There could even be an argument against an explicit name in a graphic novel trumping a name picked out of an episode. The assignment trackers are currently a special case due to their degree of trust and explicitness. I would suggest treating them as a special case currently rather than making a blanket statement about explicitness across all sources. (Admin 13:56, 9 December 2008 (EST))
    • Actually, in the majority of recent posts (other than mine), people have been referring to the quote "Lightning. That ought to come in handy" when Peter is shooting lightning bolts, and suggesting that he is referring to the ability. Is that an explicit reference? Since Peter also referred to Elle's ability as lightning, that's how "electric manipulation" comes into play.--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:26, 9 December 2008 (EST)
      • Depending on what you're comparing to, it is an explicit reference, however it's not an explicit naming of the ability. An explict naming of the ability would be "The power of Lightning. That ought to come in handy." (Admin 16:39, 9 December 2008 (EST))

A suggestion for dealing with the Electromagnetism power (That the future DHS agent has)

I just transcribed both (Walls, Part 1) and (Walls, Part 2) this week. What I found is the following:
Our Heroeswiki useage of the name 'electromagnetism' for this ability is speculative; in the light that:
1) ZERO uses of the word 'MAGNET'(or its derivatives); or any specific references of it as the main-power by the writers or the artists.., but a very clear primary focus on being able to manipulate and cast electricity from ones hands rather, as the primary power of this person)
2) ZERO visual artwork frames showcasing specific magnetic action; other than us presuming levitation is from electromagnetism.
3) ZERO uses or references to anything dealing with magnetism in either GN;
4) No other Heroes-Verse source I can remember ever credits the DHS Agent of anything 'magnetism'...we are just speculatively presuming it because he is levitating.
5) The DHS Agent (or Peter after absorbing it) are seen manipulating electricity from their hands in 10 frames.
6) He is shown levitating explicitly in three frames(some frames he is grounded while manipulating electricity).
7) From just the information shown in art and written in text, they present his ability to manipulate electricity in the same manner consistent with Elle (and others who've acquired her power); the only difference being, this DHS agent has a yet unknown and yet explained secondary ability to levitate; which we cannot confirm precisely where it comes from, without speculation. Most likely from his manipulation of Electricity; but that is his primary ability; just like Elle. Keeping this split over two powers in light of the evidence, is just as speculative; and the two pages should be merged, and a simple note listed saying the DHS demonstrated a secondary ability to levitate in some frames, but we do not know conclusively how he does it.--HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 12/9/2008 16:17 (EST)

  • Without knowing what Gaydos and Grumment were instructed to do in the script, I'd wager that there was a small chance that the levitation thing was the artist's choice, and wasn't intended by NBC. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 16:28, 9 December 2008 (EST)
    • You could be right, SVD. Based on the quotes, I think you are correct, but that's really irrelevant, imho, as we consider both the art and the words in each novel.--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:37, 9 December 2008 (EST)
      • Hmm, I'm not sure about the levitating being an artist choice or not. Adding something like levitating is not something most artists I've spoken with would add by themselves. Now, I've never spoken with Michael Gaydos or Tom Grummett, so I'm projecting thoughts. I've also never spoken with writer Joe Pokaski, but I've read some of his scripts, and he's very specific in the action he adds. I know that's not what's really being discussed here (and I'll make some other, more pertinent comments in a moment), but I just wanted to make sure that we're not assuming that something "odd" is automatically an artist's choice, or that an artist's choice should necessarily be discounted. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:38, 10 December 2008 (EST)
  • Based on how we are overlooking doubt on the assignment tracker, I now agree with your position to merge as you suggested, HDS. However, I would point out that there was a consensus before to use electromagnetism as the best name, that in a BTE it was spoonfed and not rejected (not really confirmation, I know), and that the agent's feet are not clearly shown where you are saying he is touching the ground. That said, is the new policy grounds for a new consensus check for this ability's name?--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:37, 9 December 2008 (EST)
    • Since the new policy covers only people with entries (and ability names) in the assignment tracker, I think no. The assignment tracker is currently the only source I'm aware of with explicit names with verifiable accuracy, reliability, and unambiguity. (Admin 16:42, 9 December 2008 (EST))

Why not simply do the merger (I don't really care which name (EM or L); and then put a note with the DHS Agent similar to how we do Edward so it states:

  • Edward has this ability as a byproduct of his original ability of accelerated probability.
  • DHS Agent has the ability of levitation as a byproduct of his original ability of (EM or L).

This would be more consistent, less-speculative, and remove a mostly redundant page allowing us to merge the two powers, which primarily are the same thing. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 12/9/2008 16:59 (EST)

  • Cause Admin said no.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:02, 9 December 2008 (EST)
    • I think my comment was misunderstood or perhaps I misunderstood MiamiVolts's initial question. I have no opinion on whether it should be merged or not. I was just saying that the new policy doesn't really come into play here because the character has no assignment tracker. So the merits of a merge are based on all the existing policies and precedent we've used. (Admin 17:36, 9 December 2008 (EST))
      • I think you misunderstood my response to HDS. He was asking why we don't just merge it, and I was pointing out that to do so, we would need a new consensus check and that the new policy is not grounds to hold one. Regardless, thanks for your clarification on the matter.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:46, 9 December 2008 (EST)
        • Is there a rule on having another consensus check when new information comes to light (in this case, the new information being that Elle's old ability is now called electric manipulation instead of lightning and that others have shown multiple abilities, including the ability to produce lightning coupled with something else)? --Stevehim 20:06, 9 December 2008 (EST)
          • When there is new information that applies, we can normally call a consensus check. I thought one is warranted in this situation, but since it's linked to the new policy related to the assignment tracker, Admin appears to disagree. Perhaps Edward being a new character with lightning as a part of another ability qualifies; I'll leave that to Admin to answer.--MiamiVolts (talk) 20:12, 9 December 2008 (EST)
            • That's a good point. I would consider it reasonable to discuss the idea in light of the renaming of Lightning. I don't think a consensus check is necessary at this time (or ever at all, frankly, since the discussions themselves reveal consensus and provide the backing opinions that form its foundation). (Admin 21:25, 9 December 2008 (EST))

Merge with Electric manipulation

Based on Admin's comment above, I'll start this section. Many of the arguments are above on this page, so I'll start by asking for objections. --Stevehim 21:32, 9 December 2008 (EST)

  • No real one here, DO IT! The only sticking point would be the Agent levitating but that can easily be rationalized away by one of two ways; say that the agent has flight as a byproduct of electric manip and properly note this on the flight page, or (lots more speculation) say that the agent possessed flight as an outright, separate ability that he absorbed from someone.--SacValleyDweller (talk) 22:42, 9 December 2008 (EST)
    • Electricity can be manipulated to cause levitation as it has been stated above: Electrostatic Levitation for example. Elle's assignment tracker has her control index at 45%. It is possible that the Agent has more control over his ability and is able to manipulate electricity to levitate. -- Cael 23:42, 9 December 2008 (EST)
      • I'm all for the rename. In the "first" big discussion, we had never really seen evolution of abilities (Matt could only read minds, Hiro had only just learned how to teleport another person, and Peter was just coming to terms with how his ability works). So we've learned quite a bit since then--learning which, if we had "back then", would have possibly allowed for the thought that somebody with Elle's power could possibly levitate, too. That was the main argument--Elle couldn't levitate, but the agent could. Hmm. Seems almost silly now. Even sillier considering that Peter referred to the power as "lightning". Regardless, I think we've got a great opportunity now for a much better solution--Elle's assignment tracker profile refers to the power she has as "electric manipulation". With fresh eyes, the agent's power sure looks and feels like Elle's power, with the exception of the levitation. But levitating by manipulating electricity sure seems to fit under the umbrella of "electric manipulation". I'm all for the merge. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:02, 10 December 2008 (EST)
        • Agreed, as per all the above reasons. Nothing new I can really say. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 23:04, 10 December 2008 (EST)
          • I've already given my reasons and said that I now agree with the merge. I do think, though, that "electrostatic levitation" should not be mentioned in the article, or even it be specified that the levitation is due to electricity. Though that is possible, that is also speculation we don't have to make. We just have to document how the ability is referred to in the novel, and that the agent appears to levitate. (See my comments last year to understand why I think electrostatic levitation is wrong.)--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:54, 11 December 2008 (EST)
            • Nothing new to say that no one else has said yet. I say go for it. Psilaq Remake 20:43, 12 December 2008 (EST)
              • Everyone that has voiced in has been positive for the merger now under the present conditions; so let's getter done. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 12/15/2008 11:17 (EST)