Talk:Takezo Kensei/Archive 1

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Formal Name

Do we need to sic the "Kensai" spelling in the quote? Since they're both Anglicised, either is correct, but I can see how it might dissuade people from "correcting" the spelling.--Hardvice (talk) 13:37, 24 January 2007 (EST)

  • Maybe we can remove it for now, and if there's a problem we can put it back? --Fcphantom 13:40, 24 January 2007 (EST)
  • Given the flexible nature of the English spelling, I'd make one name a redirect to the other, specify that both spellings are valid in the introduction, and drop the sic. --Ted C 14:39, 24 January 2007 (EST)


Out of curiosity, what's the source we use to identify Takezo Kensei as Miyamoto Musashi? --Ted C 14:40, 24 January 2007 (EST)

  • I'm not the one who added it, but from my research at wikipedia, this assumption seems valid. Disney42 19:46, 24 January 2007 (EST)
    • I added it. Searching for Takezo Kensei (and Kensai) on Wikipedia yields the article on Miyamoto Musashi. The article on Musashi has info that seems consistent with what Hiro says about Kensei, but there's not much to go on from Hiro's monologue. I don't have any other sources, but I'd say that Wikipedia usually has correct info. If anybody can find more info on it, I'd appreciate it. :) - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:13, 24 January 2007 (EST)
      • I was the one that posted the redirect for Kensei (which btw is an incorrect spelling and most probably a production error) to Musashi's page on Wikipedia. I also linked the Takezo Kensai character to Miyamoto Musashi on Wikipedia's Godsend page. In the talk page I discussed and gave some good points about why Takezo Kensai are one of the same. Here's my quote:
        Just a follow up on Miyamoto Musashi. I noticed in Godsend, when Hiro sees the sword on the armour for the first time, the scene changes to a placard with: Takezo Kensei (1584- [sic]. Note two things, one is that the name is misspelt as Kensei. I assume this is a production error because later on, subtitles correctly spell it as Takezo Kensai. However, the important part is the birth year 1584. Miyamoto's birth year is also 1584. I don't think that's just a coincidence.
        --Takagawa-kun 07:14, 25 January 2007 (EST)
        • Lacking any historical connection between the names, I've changed the Formal Name of the character to Takezo Kensei. Being based on a historical figure is not the same as actually being that figure. --Ted C 09:47, 25 January 2007 (EST)
          • Just to be clear, there's 2 issues at work here. 1) This may or may not be Miyamoto, we can't be sure. 2) Since this is a tranliteration of a Japanese name, there is no "correct" spelling. The only correct way to spell it is with Japanese kanji characters. That said, the placard and the subtitle are not in accord, so I'm sure there was a small production error/miscommunication somewhere along the way. It's noted on the page. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 11:02, 25 January 2007 (EST)
            • I can sort of understand the point in regards to a historical figure, and the character within Heroes that its based on. I think its still important to reflect the basis of this historical figure. For instance, its important that Tekezo Kensei IS Miyamoto Musashi whose regarded as the worlds most greatest swordsman with many stories and artifacts which attest to that. On to historical connection to the name. A brief story would begin with a person named Shinmen Takezo born in 1584 who became a skilled and adept swordsman. Sometime in his career he was given his samurai name Miyamoto Musashi and from then on thats what he was referred to. Now to Takezo Kensei. Kensei is an honorific; a title given to warriors with legendary skills in swordsmanship. That is why he is referred to as Takezo Kensai.

              As long as it can be established that Shinmen Takezo was a reknowned swordsman of his time, that he would be called Takezo Kensai. And that's most definately established, with supporting evidence that Shinmen Takezo and Miyamoto Musashi was the same person. Supporting material can be found here [1] and here [2]. Furthermore, as stated earlier the placard states Takezo as born in 1584. Miyamoto was also born in 1584. Miyamoto was undefeated, so it would be hard to believe there would be another swordsman born in the same year with an even greater notoriety. He also wrote a book called Book of Five Rings (Gorin no shô). Also many other websites and even movies attest to the history of this historical figure, and the progression of from his birthname, honorifics etc.

              Now about the spelling of Kensei, I retract my earlier statement. I agree, its possible (I'm not knowledgeable in Japanese) that Kensei/Kensai is a transliteration of the kanji and the right spelling would be the one which has been conventionally adopted as correct. Which one I don't know. --Takagawa-kun 12:18, 25 January 2007 (EST)
              • The problem is that we have to be careful about assuming that the real world = the Heroes world. There are many differences. In our world, it's the "Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department" and "The University of Madras at Chennai". In the Heroes world, it's the "Las Vegas Police Department" and "The University of Chennai". I think it's great to note the probable connection between Miyamoto Musashi and the Takezo Kensei of the Heroes world, but we can't use the real world to prove that that's who he is in the world of Heroes. With that in mind, it's appropriate (and very interesting) for a Note, but inappropriate (as unconfirmed) elsewhere in the article.--Hardvice (talk) 12:30, 25 January 2007 (EST)
                • That's an interesting point, but if what you're trying to say that the fact Takezo Kensei in Heroes being based on the real Takezo Kensei (aka Miyamoto Musashi) is unimportant then I whole-heartedly disagree. Tim Kring and writers of Heroes had a reason why they decided to choose Takezo Kensei's sword as the one that Hiro Nakamura should have. Therefore Takezo's history should be an important consideration into fan analysis of this plot arc. --Takagawa-kun 01:56, 27 January 2007 (EST)
                  • In no way is it unimportant. It's just not confirmed in-world that he's the same guy. Thus, it belongs in the appropriate sections of the article. See Help:Sources.--Hardvice (talk) 10:56, 27 January 2007 (EST)

Deceased?

Until they show that Hiro is Takezo, we should put him as deceased (his death date is listed)--Baldbobbo 21:02, 23 February 2007 (EST)

  • Actually, it looks like the dates listed are for Miyamoto Musashi. Since Aron Coleite and Joe Pokaski have said that he's at best based on legends like Musashi, we probably shouldn't list his death date. (His birth date appeared on the label in the museum).--Hardvice (talk) 20:58, 23 February 2007 (EST)
    • Regardless, someone who is featured in a museum not for culture but for historyshould probably be dead by now. Unless we find that Hiro is indeed Takezo, then once he dies then Kensei dies.--Baldbobbo 21:02, 23 February 2007 (EST)
      • I agree, he should be listed as deceased .... and the dinosaur was a nice touch, too. :) — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:21, 23 February 2007 (EST)
        • I do what I can. Thanks for the sig button too, 'preciate it.--Baldbobbo 21:25, 23 February 2007 (EST)

Birthdate

I commented out the birthdate of 1584, as I didn't know if that had come from anything other than Miyamoto Musashi's birthdate, and it would have made him very old by the time we see him in 1671, and the real Miyamoto Musahi was dead by then, so clearly while based on Miyamoto, Takezo Kensei is not the same person. The museum plaque saying 1584 is an issue though, but may imply that Takezo is also a time traveller (speculation). So I was for not including it by now I'm not so sure.

  • Nobody ever said Takezo Kensei was Miyamoto Musashi. He could have immortality though.--Ice Vision 00:18, 23 May 2007 (EDT)
    • Yeah, there are many possibilities. We have all summer to think about them :) Alex 00:32, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Spelling Again

Sorry to dredge this up again after it was apparently settled months ago, but... As a student of Japanese, I believe that the note "Because the name has been anglicized from Japanese, there is no 'correct' spelling" is inaccurate. The process of romanization from Japanese is very standardized, and especially the selection of vowels is 1:1-- あ/a, い/i, う/u, え/e, and お/o. In no case have I ever seen any Japanese vowel map to both A and E, so one or the other of the spellings has to be wrong. Just wanted to note my rationale for editing. David.in.japan 03:39, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

  • I noticed you made the change refering to Kensei/Kensai as "surnames", but as a very pre-Meiji historical figure, and given the fact he is referred to as Takezo Kensei in both English and Japanese in the show, Kensei seems to be the given or assumed name, while Takezou seems to be the surname. Am I right about this? Alex W (talk) 11:23, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Kensei==Kaito

I think it isn't speculation and it is actually pretty accurate to claim that Takezo is Hiro's dad, see below :

Prophecy Realization
Kensei portrait.jpg Hirosdad.jpg
Takezo Kensei prepares to battle a group of Japanese soldiers..
(How to Stop an Exploding Man)
Hiro's dad
([[Graphic Novel::Category:Promotional Images|:Category:Promotional Images]])

-- FrenchFlo (talk)        06:12, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

  • Well, until they show Takezo's face, it is. Personally, I think Takezo's eyes also look like Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa's eyes. All we know it's an older Asian actor underneath that mask.--Bob 06:53, 23 May 2007 (EDT)
  • It is just speculation that Takezo and Kaito are the same person. However, it is highly likely that George Takei is the actor portraying Takezo Kensei, which could be just to indicate family ancestry (like Seamus McFly in BTTF3). Alex W (talk) 10:29, 23 May 2007 (EDT)
    • Although I agree that the BttF theory on ancestors is definitely a possibility here, I'm also leaning towards the idea that Kaito IS Takezo, and his power is immortality / the ability to control his own age. This would bring a lot more meaning to all those stories he told Hiro as a boy, if they were actually his own stories. And it would explain how he was such an adept swordsman. And, from the other end of things, it would explain how that troop of soldiers would still consider Takezo a threat in 1671, when he's apparantly 87 years old. He should be an old man laying in bed, not a lone fighter riding around on a horse. ;-) --Maelwys 15:08, 23 May 2007 (EDT)
      • I think both are possibilities, but they are purely speculation at this point. Now I think confirming if George Takei portrays Takezo Kensei is an important step that should be taken. Alex W (talk) 09:31, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
  • I put up a screen capture in which the face is much clearer. Sure looks like Takei. --Bradtem 21:27, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

David Anders to play Takezo Kensei

from Legion of super-'Heroes'

"Alias" alum David Anders... will play the most intriguing part, that of the ancient samurai warrior Takezo Kensei, Hiro Nakamura's (Masi Oka) childhood hero. While never seen during "Heroes' " first season, Kensei played a key part in the show's plot. Hiro spent most of the season trying to get ahold of Kensei's sword, which he hoped would help him in his quest to save the world.

I think that may end speculation that Takezo is the same person as Kaito Nakamura, as they will be played by different actors. Alex W (talk) 10:20, 21 June 2007 (EDT)

  • David Anders also been reported to play Kane, so it seems like there might be some confusion. However, as best as I can tell, it was Kristin Veitch who made the mistake, but subsequently changed the name to Kensei. But trying to get a straight answer out of Kristin is like trying to carry on a serious conversation with a drunk frat boy. Yeah, I'd say it's a pretty good bet that Anders is Kensei, but, um, he's not Japanese. How weird. I wonder if that has anything to do with his power....Incidentally, I should be talking to Jason La Padura later today, so I'll see what I can get from him. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 11:03, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
    • Hmm, I hadn't known who he was, and now I rember that character Kane being mentioned, and sounds like a big confusion. Alex W (talk) 09:49, 22 June 2007 (EDT)
    • There's also the fact that he looks absolutely nothing like Kensei from what we saw at the end of episode 23.
      • Do we know for certain that the character we saw at the end of the episode is Kensei and not someone else? That being said, I doubt David Anders will be playing Kensei unless it turns out Kane and Kensei are the same person. (Admin 09:55, 22 June 2007 (EDT))
        • Right. And remember that Jason La Padura said some of the rumors that were leaked are false. This announcement comes from some reliable sources, but the first to report it was Kristin Veitch, who originally announced it as Kane, and then changed it to Kensei without explanation. As for whether or not the guy at the end of the finale was Kensei, I had the same question. Ice Vision pointed out that somebody yelled "Kensei". I don't hear it, I hear somebody say "i-ke" or something. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 11:11, 22 June 2007 (EDT)
        • For what it's worth, kilohoku never lists the guy as Kensei, but as the "lone rider". They also never list anybody saying "Kensei". They've made mistakes before, but I've found kilohoku to generally be pretty accurate. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 11:14, 22 June 2007 (EDT)
          • This is not so relevant, but just something to remember--"Kensei" is a title given to a skillful swordsman. Heroes is not using it as a title but as a last name...but that's not to say that they might go back and make it a title. Perhaps Kane is somebody who was trained as a swordsman and became a Kensei. But I don't know, it seems like that story has been done before. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 11:16, 22 June 2007 (EDT)
            • If the guy isn't Kensei, then he's stolen his armor, because the armor is exactly the same as the one we saw in the museum in Godsend. Regardless, all of the paintings of Kensei clearly show him to be a black haired, brown eyed asian man. You'd think that, as famous as Kensei became, if he was European, then that would be widely known certainly among the painters of the time. Also, not that Heroes is always historically accurate, but during that period of time (from 1600 to 1868), Japan was very isolated. The only foreigners allowed in were official traders, and they were restricted to the island of Dejima. It would be extremely difficult for a European to just wander the countryside of Japan without getting captured and deported, much less train as a samurai and become a great warlord. Conduit 12:53, 22 June 2007 (EDT)
Prophecy Realization
Kensei portrait.jpg David Anders.jpg
Takezo Kensei prepares to battle a group of Japanese soldiers..
(How to Stop an Exploding Man)
David Anders
([[Graphic Novel::Category:Spoiler Images|:Category:Spoiler Images]])

Even if Anders' character was a shapeshifter or body jumper, you'd think that they'd credit the actor who played his Kensei "form" as Kensei. They credited Tawny Cypress as Simone in Parasite and Adrian Pasdar as Nathan in Five Years Gone, didn't they? Conduit 19:23, 21 June 2007 (EDT)

  • From IGN:
    As for the revelation that Alias's David Anders would be playing a character named Takezo Kensei, Kring said during the press conference, "Like with everything on Heroes, nothing is quite what it seems to be, so there is clearly some subterfuge going on there that has to be unearthed and dealt with. And that becomes a huge part of the story, is the reveal of who this character really is."
    Interesting... -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:24, 22 June 2007 (EDT)

Kensei is "the lone rider" regardless of who the actor is

Lone Rider Kensei
same sword
Kensei portrait.jpg Symbol sword normal.jpg
same helm, face-plate, and throat cover
Kensei portrait.jpg TakezoKenseiDisplay.jpg
same torso cloak
Kensei.gif Takezo Kensei.jpg
--HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 06/22/2007 13:27 (EST)