Episode talk:The Art of Deception

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Oh, my.

It was a great episode, but very disturbing throughout all of it. Doyle is controlling Emma in the dream. Matt turns on Sylar (granted, Sylar is a deranged killer, but Matt said he saw into his head and knew he meant he wanted to change). Samuel has Eli do the dirty work to a grand scale, then makes sure Lydia knows he did it before she dies?... this episode was extreme.--Riddler 21:59, 25 January 2010 (EST)

  • The one stupid thing that stood out to me is that Claire just didn't bother trying to bring Lydia back. They REALLY need to address her ability to revive the dead. Of course, if they did, I'd probably be here complaining that they took the cheap cop-out method to keep Lydia around. Still, one line would have been nice.--Gibbeynator 22:02, 25 January 2010 (EST)
    • I thought it was kind of creepy that Matt was going to live a normal life with his family after putting a serial killer in his wall. A bit odd of a move on Matt's part. I didn't see Doyle controlling Emma though.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 22:03, 25 January 2010 (EST)
      • He was on the right side of the screen as Emma was playing the Cello, moving his arms as if he were playing it, in Peter's dream.--Riddler 22:04, 25 January 2010 (EST)
        • This was a fantastic episode, but where was Amanda? Her mom was kinda lying there dead, and she was no where to be found?--Ratclaws 22:06, 25 January 2010 (EST)
          • She was hiding out in one of those giant plot holes the writers like to make once in a while.--Gibbeynator 22:12, 25 January 2010 (EST)
          • I was just thinking that. I mean, they can't say she was sleeping through the gunshots and screaming. I suppose Sasha Pieterse wasn't available for filming or something.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 22:20, 25 January 2010 (EST)
            • Perfect episode, and i think that the reason they didnt have claire save lydia to show that everyone can't be invincible in heroes and people do actually die. daevon 22:34, 25 January 2010 (EST)
              • Or, when she was saying things like "stop the bleeding, keep pressure on the wound" she was trying to prep Lydia for a transfer and she didn't get there in time. Samuel did tell her it was too late. It doesn't seem as if she can just dribble blood in someone's wound. Both times the blood's been used it's been in a certain type of situation, and I think many viewers have blown its effects out of proportion. --DigitalCount 22:42, 25 January 2010 (EST)
                • Noah had his brains blown out but he still came back. I think the writers just need to outline the specifics of the RCR blood transfer.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 22:44, 25 January 2010 (EST)
                  • I don't think Claire knew how her blood "can" revive the dead. Or at least if she did, Samuel would make sure she didn't. I'm glad Claire figured it out that it wasn't Noah, because I can't stand it when she's naive. And seriously it was obvious it wasn't Noah, it wasn't funny, but then the Carnival people don't know about Noah so I guess that's okay. But seriously, Noah would never shoot wildly, attacking anyone in sight, he'd probably be calculating and he would make sure he killed someone. Although the faith in Samuel is so annoyingly blind. I mean come on, what Joseph dies and suddenly Samuel is so great, you'd believe every word he says without thinking, especially after he kills a whole town. Wow, just wow. But anyway.--Dman dustin 23:11, 25 January 2010 (EST)
                    • As a note, Claire does know. When Bennet got shot in the eye, when he saw Claire again, he told her it was her blood. Further proof is when Peter needed Noah to find him Jeremy, Claire asked, "Why can't you just use my blood?"--Riddler 02:00, 26 January 2010 (EST)
                      • I thought this episode gave us conclusive proof that Claire's blood doesn't work on the dead. Like someone said above, I thought she grabbed Doyle to help set up a makeshift transfusion, but Lydia had died before she got back. Because if it did work on the dead, then Samuel saying "it's too late" wouldn't mean anything, right? This is, at a stretch, consistent with past events- Nathan wasn't dead, Maya had literally just been shot so it's concievable her heart was still beating, and Noah was very very near death and they had the blood set up in the van. A dark episode overall to be sure, particularly Matt's scenes with Sylar (him bricking up the body in his basement was downright creepy). But I prefer this to something like Close to You, where it's close to just silly. Swm 06:29, 26 January 2010 (EST)
                        • A sentance or two, that's all I wanted. Something like "I can use my blood to bring her back." "No, we don't do that here..." "OK." We're reaching Countdown levels of plot forgetfulness here, and I'd rather not have Heroes turn into Countdown.--Gibbeynator 07:16, 26 January 2010 (EST)
  • You see though, that's my point. It's not a plot hole. It's consistent with past events, and the fact that Claire even went to try and use her blood shows they haven't just forgotten about it. Just because it's not acknowledged verbally doesn't mean anything. Swm 07:21, 26 January 2010 (EST)
    • Maybe so, but they really shouldn't have acted as though Claire's blood can't revive the dead (If it basically brought HRG back from being shot through the eye, it can certainly bring Lydia back from the dead.). Of course, seeing how Samuel Sullivan seemed to know her ability, I'm guessing one of the reasons he's keeping Claire locked up is so he could prevent her from trying to revive her. I'm also suspecting that it was Samuel, not the bullet wound, that was directly responsible for her death, as that second kiss seemed to be planted there to drain any oxygen from her. Also, is the actress who played Lydia greek? I'm asking because she looks like one of my classmates at College, and that classmate is from Greece. Pokeria1 08:33, 26 January 2010 (EST)
    • And another stupid moment here, Edgar can run really fast, but he doesn't make it to the carnival until AFTER the bloodbath? Even if he didn't have a compass, the destruction of an entire town made the 24-hour news channels, he should have been able to put 2 and 2 together. And thirdly, I know this was probably written and filmed before the Haiti earthquake but still, TOO SOON. It's like, I know they wrote and filmed the premiere BEFORE that college girl was killed and stuffed in a wall, but still...--Gibbeynator 07:24, 26 January 2010 (EST)
      • As a general point, nobody's forcing you to watch the show. If you're uncomfortable with it, you don't need to watch it. But to say that because you're uncomfortable with it, nobody should be allowed to watch it (which is what would happen if it were called off), is going far too far for me. As for Edgar, I more got the impression that someone contacted him after Lydia's death to let him know. He wouldn't have launched an attack on the place by himself. Swm 07:31, 26 January 2010 (EST)
        • I know, and I did vow to myself and to my family that if Claire ever becomes a lesbian (thus completely contradicting the seasons/volumes prior to it), that episode would be my last, as I do NOT want any contradictions, especially those on sexual orientation (as that, like abilities and pigmentation, are down to the genetic level.). Pokeria1 08:33, 26 January 2010 (EST)
          • I really don't think Claire's blood can revive the dead. Otherwise it would have been used on Nathan at the end of Volume 4, and Samuel didn't actually prevent Claire using it here, he simply said it was too late, and Claire didn't even try to help her. This says to me that Claire knows that her blood is useless on a dead body, and that Noah wasn't dead when Mohinder shot him. Claire being attracted to women doesn't actually contradict anything- like Gretchen, she could just be bisexual. Swm 09:36, 26 January 2010 (EST)
            • The problem with that is that Claire had never shown ANY attraction to the same sex prior to Redemption (and seeing how she was on the Cheerleading squad in the three prior seasons, with her gender with similar typed bodies, that's saying quite a lot.). It makes absolutely no sense that Claire can just be Bisexual in this season. They could have implied it (similar to how Smither's homosexual nature in The Simpsons was only implied) in the previous seasons, but they never did. Pokeria1 13:37, 26 January 2010 (EST)
            • We know the regeneration ability can revive the dead, and Noah certainly LOOKED dead... what I said earlier about this turning into Countdown, yeah, too late.--Gibbeynator 09:52, 26 January 2010 (EST)
              • I think the explanation given for Nathan was that he had bled out by the time everyone arrived, and Claire's blood can't work in those conditions. But that may have been a fan theory, and Lydia may have bled out by the time Claire arrived, although that's unlikely.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 10:15, 26 January 2010 (EST)
  • Empath is correct. How do we know Claire's blood can revive the dead? The only example of it is Noah, and even that's not certain. Blood loss seems far less important than the lack of a heartbeat or some other force to pump Claire's blood around the body. Swm 12:26, 26 January 2010 (EST)
    • Even if Noah did have a heart beat, he was already with an IV, heart beat or no heart beat, the blood was getting in, and being pushed by more blood coming in. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:36, 26 January 2010 (EST)
      • OMFG people, stop thinking claire's blood can raise dead! I know it seemed like Noah was dead, but if he was shot in the eye and Mohinder still managed to save him with Claire's blood, did you ever consider that Noah ended up with a massive head wound, missing eye, bad lobotomy, and would have been bleeding, but wasn't dead before Mohinder managed to give him Claire's blood? Since they couldn't save Nathan or Lydia (it was too late), they were dead. Claire said to keep pressure on Lydia's wound because she knew she could save a living person, but giving a blood transfusion isn't that easy without a medical kit, so she runs off to get one (can't just bleed on the person as if the blood were pixie dust). Samuel knows somebody has to die in order for the carnies to rally behind him against normals (before Lydia dies Samuel tells her that he needed a villain and she's giving him one), so he kills the person that knows for certain that he's bad (he previously questioned Lydia about what she's been telling people).--Jas3point14 19:35, 26 January 2010 (EST)
        • The problem is that being shot in the eye like that would kill him instantly. If you watched Saving Private Ryan when one of Miller's soldiers shot the German Sniper, you'll notice that the resulting wound of the shot (the one that ended up killing the German Sniper) heavily resembled the wound that HRG got that killed him. Plus, it was explicitly stated when he returned to claire that he was revived thanks to her blood, which confirms that he did indeed die (you can't say he was revived if he didn't even die.). Pokeria1 19:52, 26 January 2010 (EST)
          • It is possible that all the blood needs is access to the brain and for it to still be alive in some shape or form, but as soon as it dies completely, that's it. --mc_hammark 19:57, 26 January 2010 (EST)
          • Did you guys ever consider that maybe there's a TIME LIMIT on it? Like maybe once somebody's been dead for, say, three minutes, if they haven't started receiving a transfusion by then, it's too late?--Clairesxtwin48 20:04, 26 January 2010 (EST)
            • Lydia wasn't even dead for three minutes, though. If anything, it was more like a few seconds. Pokeria1 20:23, 26 January 2010 (EST)
              • True, but remember- Samuel WANTED Lydia dead. That was clearly his whole plan in having Eli shoot the carnival out. Remember what he said at the beginning of the episode about Lydia being the "voice of wisdom" within the Carnival? She was slowly and steadily turning the other carnies against him. Therefore, it makes sense that he would prevent Claire from using her blood by telling her that it's too late. And Claire was off getting a first aid kit with Doyle- how would she know how long Lydia had been dead for? --Clairesxtwin48 20:49, 26 January 2010 (EST)
                • Yeah, and he probably locked her up just to ensure that she didn't try to revive Lydia. Pokeria1 20:53, 26 January 2010 (EST)
        • Claire being bisexual isn't a plot hole at all, and in fact in my opinion is kind of awesome. High school is a tough time for many people especially if you're bi or gay/lesbian so it might not come out until college years. It's called being in the closet. Heroes has always been very progressive, this just makes it so much better. --Nicknameguy 23:19, 31 January 2010 (EST)
          • Wait, what do Claire's sexual leanings have to do with whether or not her blood can revive the dead? (Though for the record, I agree with you) --Clairesxtwin48 23:46, 31 January 2010 (EST)
            • He's right, it has absolutely nothing to do with the blood issue. However, just to counter his answer, the issue in regards to Clare's orientation is that they never implied that Claire was a homosexual/bisexual, not even a closeted one. Trust me, knowing what the Simpsons does with Mr. Smithers, if they wanted to imply that she was a closet, they would have done it in Season 1. Plus, it would be difficult to have Claire hide her orientation in a group that has easy access (Cheerleading squad. I mean, if heterosexual teenage men stumble upon a women's locker room and have trouble controlling themselves in regards to their urges, you can bet that Claire would have the exact same trouble if she was homosexual or bisexual.). Pokeria1 06:43, 1 February 2010 (EST)
              • Pokeria, not to be rude, but I'll say it again, everyone develops differently, you can't say that Claire isn't bisexual because she hasn't shown any urges beforehand. You've been reduced to using The Simpsons as evidence. It's really starting to become offensive.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:15, 1 February 2010 (EST)
                • All right then, I'll stop, but I still don't really see any evidence that Claire herself is that. Pokeria1 15:51, 1 February 2010 (EST)
                • I dunno, when talking about the closet scene from Pass/Fail Oliver Grigsby stated in his newest blog that the fact it was in a closet mattered. His exact quote was "Yes it's in a closet. Yes that matters." --mc_hammark 17:29, 1 February 2010 (EST)
                  • You know, I printed out the blog (although I had to do it via Microsoft Word) and showed it to my parents, and both of them, after at least one of them reviewed it, said that he was moreorless had too much time on his hands, and that he's only saying what he wants to say, just like the fans of the show who WANT Claire to be a Lesbian. Besides, going by the nature of the blog, this was just more or less a special-effects designer, not a writer. We also concluded another thing, although this was long before I showed her the blog. If the writers are trying to make a relationship (a sexual one) between Claire and Gretchen (with both being aware), they were taking a painfully long time. As for the whole "Closet Scene," Of course a closet would matter, as when trying to hide from a killer, the last place ANYONE, never mind the villain, would suspect would be the closet. It has absolutely nothing to do with any orientation (Granted, the "Gretchen" that Claire saved was not Gretchen, but actually Sylar, but Claire didn't quite know that until Sylar shed the disguise.). I'm only a person who looks at things logically and pragmatically, and never emotionally. Hence, I never saw any reason for her to go that way this season. As for holding hands, so? I've held hands with my parents, and I've never had sexual attractions to either of them even once. Anyways, please stop. Pokeria1 07:55, 2 February 2010 (EST)

That guy with fire...

That wasn't Chris Bowman was it? He was standing next to the woman with the kid girl in her arms that might have been Gail and Jennie. If it was him, fire breathing sure must have evolved!--Ratclaws 22:27, 25 January 2010 (EST)

  • I think it was a different person. I liked the effect used for pyrokinesis in this episode though, more like a fireball and less like an open flame.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 22:31, 25 January 2010 (EST)
    • He kinda looked like the new drawing of Chris in todays iStory.--Ratclaws 23:10, 25 January 2010 (EST)
      • It was definitely Chris. Heroes Interactive:The Art of Deception confirmed it. It looks like Chris can do more than just breathe fire.... -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:21, 26 January 2010 (EST)
        • If he's always been known as a firebreather, and he can make fire with his hands now, is it alright to assume that Fire breathing is Pyrokinesis, or are we gonna keep the two separate? Also, I can't remember, did he make the fire with his hand on screen? The shape of it made it look like he was holding a flaming ball, and if it was done off screen, it's entirely possible he has a ball he lit on fire with his mouth.--Riddler 00:36, 26 January 2010 (EST)
          • It's a tough call, Riddler. He's been explicitly called a fire breather before, and we've never seen a pyrokinetic who was able to breathe fire. Add to that that we never saw Chris actually make the fireball (he was holding it), and it's hard to say conclusively that the two powers were the same. I think for now, it's best that we just add that Chris has another aspect of his ability to breathe fire, sort of like Jennie made fire come out of her nose and her eyes. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:13, 26 January 2010 (EST)
          • I've always found the logic of calling it fire breathing bizarre, really, because it implies that if the fire comes from the hands, it's one ability, and if it comes from the mouth, it's another. But under the current guidelines we'd just have to say Chris has the ability to generate fire from other places then his mouth. Swm 06:32, 26 January 2010 (EST)
            • Seems like fire breathing can work through every opening in the body. What's next, fire sweating? Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:18, 26 January 2010 (EST)
            • Nut uh, look at this picture, you can see chris holding his hand up and his lips are pursed, like he just blew it out.--mc_hammark 14:42, 26 January 2010 (EST)
  • thank you mc_hammark, i also recalled him blowing the fireball into his hands, but wasn't about to go back through the video to screencap it.--Jas3point14 19:38, 26 January 2010 (EST)
    • Excellent cap, mc_h. That makes a lot more sense. So he still breathes the fire, but what we've learned is that he can hold it, too. Cool. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:36, 26 January 2010 (EST)
      • Though I agree with it, this cap doesn't really prove much. He just may be making that face. We didn't actually see him blow the fire, did we?--Riddler 21:00, 26 January 2010 (EST)
        • We don't need proof that he blew fire. We need to know that there's a possibility he blew fire--or more specifically, we need to know that there's a possibility that he didn't create the fire with his hands. The screencap above gives us that possibility. Because of it, there's no need to go and change the fire breathing page to say that a fire breather can create fire with his hands--or more extreme, we don't have to merge the page with pyrokinesis. But while we're on the subject, I'll take a look in the script (I a have a few things to look for anyway) to see if there's any more information about the fireball. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:31, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Peter, Sylar and Peter's dream about Emma

It's looking more and more like Sylar is the only one that can save Emma, but if she's being controled by Eric Doyle (I rewatched that part and Eric is there but its not clear if he's just watching or controling her) it may be saving her by killing him finally. It's cool how Peter is using telepathy to enter Sylar's mind to try to save him. Ever since he replicated that power the first time, he's shown more aspects of it then when he just mimicked it.--WarGrowlmon18 22:40, 25 January 2010 (EST)

  • I swear I saw his arms moving as if he were making her play.--Riddler 22:44, 25 January 2010 (EST)
    • Emma looked like she was in pain (her fingers were bleeding) but her facial expression wasn't of anger but sadness, she looked like she was being controlled by doyle. And Sylar looked like he was really trying to save her. daevon 22:49, 25 January 2010 (EST)
      • I just watched that scene again in slow motion and doyle WAS controlling Emma. You can clearly see him behind her, in his blue suit, making the gestures for playing a violin. daevon 23:32, 25 January 2010 (EST)
        • Emma's fingers were bleeding pretty badly in that scene. I very much doubt she'd be angry enough to actually hurt herself unless she was being controlled. If Doyle's doing it, then that explains why she looks so upset, because we know from a prior GN that Doyle can't control their facial movements. Swm 06:33, 26 January 2010 (EST)
  • Peter seems to be pretty determined to save Emma. After all, he's going to great lengths to rescue the man who murdered his beloved brother and who, not two weeks before, he was ready to brutally murder. Maybe it's the shipper in me, but anyone else think he's definitely got a thing for Emma, to be doing this much for her? --Clairesxtwin48 18:08, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Gabriel "Fortunato" Gray

  • When Matt was bricking in Sylar, I kept thinking back to Edgar Allen Poe's story The Cask of Amontillado. I wonder if it was inspired by that. :) (Admin 00:21, 26 January 2010 (EST))
    • Exactly what I thought back to :) Dean 02:46, 26 January 2010 (EST)
      • Thank god I wasn't the only one who immediately thought that. It sent chills down my spine. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 15:19, 26 January 2010 (EST)
        • yup, brings back memories of reading that story in junior high--Jas3point14 20:39, 26 January 2010 (EST)
    • That was the very first thing I thought of, as well. It creeped me out immensely and I thought it was a really effective allusion. Major props to the Heroes writers for working that in.---Clairesxtwin48 20:51, 26 January 2010 (EST)
  • I believe that the story is more like Poe's "The Black Cat" because Sylar is unconscious and is entombed inside Parkman's basement. Can someone double check please? Dance4thedead 21:26, 5 February 2010 (EST)

Peter turning into his Mum

  • Angela had a chance to finally stop Sylar at the end of last season and instead she used Sylar for the "Greater Good", now Peter wants to do the same thing to save Thousands of people even though he knows hes Nathan's murderer and will probably kill even more people. Hes entering that morally Grey area that shes already in. lukas333
    • Yep, and Matt's turning into his father. Oh motifs! =P --Nicknameguy 10:52, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Noah

  • Where was Mohinder in all this? I thought Noah needed him to use the compass to find the carnival. AHHH Great episode btw, extremely intense. --Nicknameguy 01:15, 26 January 2010 (EST)
    • That was what I was wondering, how could Noah and Lauren get to the carnival without an evolved human, and Edgar without a compass? --Jmfdr91 01:33, 26 January 2010 (EST)
      • In an early version of the script, it actually was Mohinder who raided the carnival with Noah, rather than Lauren. That was changed somewhere along the way. However, Mohinder did build the compass, and he left the instructions that he needed a special to operate it. That's neither Lauren nor Noah. I would imagine that they used another contact offscreen. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:34, 26 January 2010 (EST)
        • Interesting. It looked like Noah and Lauren already had satellite photos of the carnival, so I guess it can be seen using certain types of cameras and it was simply invisible to the naked eye. Thus, once Samuel destroyed the nearby town, Noah really didn't need the compass anymore. He just had Lauren get him satellite photos and that led them there. Just my theory.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:44, 26 January 2010 (EST)
          • Yeah, that makes sense. Find the town that sinks into the ground, and head in that direction. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:49, 26 January 2010 (EST)
            • I just assumed that there was a bit of time between the end of Pass/Fail and this episode, so Noah could have checked up on Hiro (he did almost die in his apartment, after all), and gotten Ando to point the way for them. Miami's theory also makes a great deal of sense. Swm 06:37, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Intense episode, eh?

n/t -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 02:09, 26 January 2010 (EST)

  • I thought so. Very disturbing throughout... hence my original thread up top. ;D--Riddler 02:12, 26 January 2010 (EST)
    • Yeah, but your thread got hijacked, so I wanted to emphasize the intensity of the episode, rather than have people get lost in quibbling over minor inconsistencies in an otherwise outstanding episode. It was really weird to see Matt so angry and vengeful like that. "Enjoy hell" or whatever he said. Wow. And putting up "The Wall"--that was pretty cool! Can't wait to see how things turn out. We're really on a freight train until the season finale, aren't we! -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 02:21, 26 January 2010 (EST)
      • This season has had very disturbing kisses, Sylar kissing a restrained Angela and Claire, now Samuel kissing a dying Lydia. Vanessa and Samuel kissing after she broke her heart wasn´t very lovely either. Am I the only one who thinks that´s kinda creepy? Nice episode btw, this has been a great season. --Jmfdr91 02:44, 26 January 2010 (EST)
        • Now they've gotta show us a Judas kiss, if they're so obsessed with kisses. Somebody has to betray Samuel and avenge Lydia! Green.gif AltesUTC CH 02:51, 26 January 2010 (EST)
      • I actually felt really bad for Sylar after Matt trapped him within his mind, when he said "Parkman?" timidly. Unusual, as Sylar is the last character someone would feel bad for.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:41, 26 January 2010 (EST)
        • I always feel bad for Sylar. He's had a bad run of it, and every time he tries to change, it goes horribly wrong and just ends up emotionally scarring him more. Let's hope it either sticks this time, or he dies, because otherwise it won't keep being believable. Oh, and to keep this thread on-topic, yeah, it was intense. One of the best so far this season, and that's saying a lot, as I'd say it's back up to Season 1 quality.--Clairesxtwin48 18:15, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Evan Davis

Where was he? Did Samuel call someone Evan?--Ratclaws 09:24, 26 January 2010 (EST)

  • Never mind, just saw his talk page.--Ratclaws 09:28, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Lydia

R.I.P. Why do they always kill good characters? Let's hope that the writers don't pull a Daphne on her and never mention her again. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:18, 26 January 2010 (EST)

  • I guess the message had to sink in. It wouldn't have been as affecting if they killed Damian or Jenny.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 10:19, 26 January 2010 (EST)
    • The plan wouldn't have worked if she didn't die, either. Since if she touched him in any way, she would see what his plan was. She's like a different type of mind-reader. Well, she was. Haha.--VanguardLogo.pnganguard 10:56, 26 January 2010 (EST)
      • It actually made sense for Lydia to die, unlike Daphne/Knox/numerous other characters. Samuel needed a sacrifice and the other carnies were seemingly beginning to rally around her. By killing her, he unites them against the outside world and removes the only other contender for leadership. Swm 12:26, 26 January 2010 (EST)
        • At the very least, they could have given some other character the amount of development they gave Lydia, I don't buy Edgar being as developed as her, so don't even try it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 12:36, 26 January 2010 (EST)
  • Amen to that. The good ones always die. I have to say, though, that I won't MISS Lydia as much as I miss Daphne. R.I.P. Daphne. R.I.P. Lydia.--Clairesxtwin48 18:13, 26 January 2010 (EST)
  • We should've expected something like that. Have you noticed that they ALWAYS kill a blonde female each volume? Jackie, Niki, Elle, Daphne... Now Lydia. I won't be surprised if, say, Tracy or Lauren dies in Volume Six. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 07:22, 27 January 2010 (EST)
    • I don't expected Lauren to last until Volume Six. Considering her current situation, I can see her doing something like Jo and Ellen from Supernatural. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 07:24, 27 January 2010 (EST)
      • I hope Lauren survives, I'm starting to quite like her actually. What I don't understand is why Claire didn't offer her blood for Lydia? She was straight in with it when she found out about Hiro's tumor. :/ --Leckie -- Talk 15:30, 27 January 2010 (EST)
        • Actually, she did offer her her blood. That's the reason why she left, so she can get medical supplies. Pokeria1 15:32, 27 January 2010 (EST)
          • Aah, I haven't actually seen the episode yet (Stupid england is like 12 eps behind!) She still could've injected her though, it worked on Noah. He died then Claire's blood brought him back --Leckie -- Talk 15:36, 27 January 2010 (EST)
          • Ugh, Lauren. Not a fan. She's just so "meh." She's no Lydia, and she's no Emma. She's got no depth. But I will admit, once she called Tracy "Professor X" Strauss, I started to actually like her slightly more, because now I'm done with the "she's evil" theory.--19:19, 27 January 2010 (EST)

So, Sylar will save the world

Everything kind of make sense now. BTW, one, if not the best episodes of this volume so far. --Themd 11:44, 26 January 2010 (EST)

  • Save the serial killer, save the world.--Halfxwitted 13:26, 26 January 2010 (EST)
    • Why do they always want to save Sylar, or make him good. Face it he IS a bad guy, a psychopath, and don´t blame mommy, Elle, Chandra or the hunger. That is not character development, that is strentching a storyline that has been used to many times. --Jmfdr91 16:34, 26 January 2010 (EST)
      • I agree that it's getting stale, but I don't think he's honestly rotten to the core. He's got a lot of issues and he's definitely psychopathic, but without the abilities, I'm pretty sure a few dozen years of psychotherapy would turn him into a perfectly functioning member of society.--Clairesxtwin48 19:23, 26 January 2010 (EST)
        • Who says the writers are trying to make Sylar good? I didn't get that at all. In fact, we were reminded of Sylar's evilness many times. Matt told Sylar that the ship for turning over a new leave sailed "like 50 murders ago". We had very vivid and graphic depictions of his heinous murders as a reminder of all the evil he's responsible for. And in the hands of Zachary Quinto, even an earnest plea for help can still sound sinister and creepy. I don't see anything in the writing about making him "good". I only see him being written as complicated and interesting--afterall, it's not a boring life that turns one into a serial killer. And I've never heard of a serial killer who licks his chops and looks for the next evil thing to do. Granted, I don't know too many serial killers, but even they--in all their evilness--are still humans who believe they have been wronged in some way. They are flawed humans. I think Sylar is a great portrait of that. And wouldn't the stale story plot be that of a serial killer who just kills and kills and we never learn why or how it affects him? I don't think a story about a serial killer who is seeking redemption (whether successfully or unsuccessfully) is stale at all. </rant> -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:41, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Worst episode? or one of the worst?

Anyone else think so?? I didn't like it the least bit. Personally, I think Sylar just needs to die now. They've tried to kill him 8 different ways, and it isn't in the least bit dramatic or suspenseful anymore. Second of all, they could've brought back Lydia with Claire's blood anyway. Noah was dead and he was brought back... lots of characters have died and have been brought back. And there are honestly conveniently no healers or what not? I hope Tracy comes back. I'm mad Lydia died cause she was one of my favorite new characters with a lot of potential. But surprise!!! They kill her too... -.- And well I just am very disappointed this episode. Maybe I need to rewatch it but there were a lot of confusing parts. --Jason Garrick 13:18, 26 January 2010 (EST)

  • The episode really rocked, like really. But i agree on you on Sylar, he is the best villian i know and they are %$$# him up. I dont think that Sylar has to die but atleast have an villian end.-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 13:21, 26 January 2010 (EST)
    • I also agree that Sylar needs to die (preferably at the end of season 1). Although, I think trapping him in his worst nightmare WOULD HAVE BEEN the most unique way to have done that.--Halfxwitted 13:28, 26 January 2010 (EST)
      • I have a feeling Tracy may be back next week with her "Xavier's School for the Gifted" role... from the GN... like an X-men stand-off. I also think that if they're killing Sylar off...he'll die a heroes death, taking Samuel with him. --mc_hammark 13:44, 26 January 2010 (EST)
        • I disagree. This is one of the best episodes of the season, for me. I've no real feeling on Sylar one way or the other- personally, I'd strip him of all his powers except TK, but if he should die, fine. They couldn't have brought Lydia back, because it either needs to be done intravenously or can't work on the dead. I prefer the latter- and Noah wasn't dead. Watch the episode again. Noah asks "why am I not dead?" Mohinder replies "You would have been..." meaning he never died, despite how it might look. The carnivel doesn't have a healer, which is why Samuel was so happy when Emma came. It's fine not to like it because Lydia died, but it's wrong to say it's one of the worst. Swm 13:50, 26 January 2010 (EST)
          • Not necessarily, it can also be understood as "you'd still be dead", what Mohinder said. The similarities with Claire when she was on the autopsy table are also to great to ignore. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 14:10, 26 January 2010 (EST)
            • Perhaps. But if Noah was dead, why not simply say "You were" and make it clear? If I would have been in a car crash unless someone put the brakes on, it didn't mean the car crash happened, right? It means the brakes prevented it from happening. Similarly, I saw it as Mohinder saying the blood prevented his death. Swm 14:13, 26 January 2010 (EST)
              • I'm hoping that next week Tracy unleashes like super crazy ice powers. lol. It'd be awesome if she took out like the entire carnival by herself. She's an element... so is Samuel and Chris!!! XD lol. I'm going all the last airbender on Heroes. --Jason Garrick 15:14, 26 January 2010 (EST)
                • Anyone else think that the Sylar in Peter's dream isn't Sylar at all, but perhaps someone else with his ability? (Also, very much called that Doyle was going to be responsible in some way for Emma's cello playing. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 15:23, 26 January 2010 (EST)
                  • I feel pretty certain that's Sylar, it goes along with his ethics shift. And I hate to disagree with everyone, but Sylar's coming back as a character for me.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:25, 26 January 2010 (EST)
        • I was sad that Lydia died, because I'd just gotten around to actually liking her, but I think the whole episode was an amazing tour de force of plot twists that kept up a really suspenseful storyline and it was overall an excellent episode.--Clairesxtwin48 18:12, 26 January 2010 (EST)

In all honesty Sylar will probably never die or leave, unless Zachary Quinto wants to leave heroes given that he's the cast member with the biggest fan base (sarmy for example) and arguably the most famous out of them since he starred in Star Trek if the credits were arranged in order of importance it would likely be that quinto would get first or second credit-ing plus am i the only one who noticed even though he was a main character in season 2 he was no where no the front cover than as soon as star trek came out they place him bang on the front cover for season 3.devane1835 23:21, 26 January 2010 (GMT)

  • You're probably right. Sylar definitely does have the largest fan base, and I think it's all down to the fact that Quinto is a superb actor, because his character arc has been going in circles lately. Though I don't particularly want to see the end of Sylar, I'm getting tired of the rut he's been trapped in for several volumes now. It's getting stale, and I really hope they either shake it up for him or find a way to write him off.--Clairesxtwin48 19:19, 26 January 2010 (EST)
  • I found this to be an excellent episode--far from the worst, and certainly not one of the worst either. I actually rank it up with some of the best episodes, like Five Years Gone, Company Man, and Cautionary Tales. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:38, 26 January 2010 (EST)

2010

Given that the last time Sylar was in Matt's head was before thanksgiving or on it, and Sylar quoted that being in Matt's head is "so two months ago", that means that the timeline is now in 2010 doesn't it? (if we've decided that it was 2009). --mc_hammark 19:02, 26 January 2010 (EST)

  • Probably, but when has the Heroes timeline EVER made sense? If you actually figure it out, season-by-season, based on how much time each season takes up and the time jumps between seasons, it's at most October of 2007, so I've given up trying to figure out how their timeline works.--Clairesxtwin48 19:16, 26 January 2010 (EST)
    • I took two months ago as an expression, not him stating fact. -- Tristan0709 talk 19:25, 26 January 2010 (EST)
      • I'm taking it as a literally. Chris Bowman has much longer hair than before... Look. --mc_hammark 19:42, 26 January 2010 (EST)
        • But we can't expect actors to control the growth of their hair for a job. -- Tristan0709 talk 20:07, 26 January 2010 (EST)
          • As always, whenever we have two or more canon sources that contradict each other, we confine all the contradictory information (which means pretty much the present timeline) to the notes. See here. However, past dates can still be used, as long as they are given explicitly. That means if Amanda says she was born 16 years ago, we can't add her birthday, but we can add her age. If she said she was born in 1994, we can add the birth year, but not her age. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:40, 26 January 2010 (EST)
            • About that, the show hasn't really contradicted itself in this regard. It told us that Volume 4 started in 2007 and ended in 2009. It only contradicted our own speculation. - Josh (talk/contribs) 10:00, 27 January 2010 (EST)
              • Which is pretty ridiculous when you think about it. Volume 1 lasted from October 2, 2006, to November 8, 2006. Then there's four months in between, putting us in March or possibly early April. That volume lasts... we don't know how long, but it's assumed that it lasts about a month or so. Volume 3 picks up immediately and lasts another month. So now we're up to May or June, 2007. Then Volume Four is six weeks after Volume 3. We don't know how long Volume Four lasts. And then there's two/three months between Volumes 4 and 5. So unless Volume 4 really did last two or three years, that only puts Volume 5 starting somewhere between October and November of 2007. Stupid timeline is so confusing!--Clairesxtwin48 14:39, 27 January 2010 (EST)
                • That's just the thing, we don't know how long V4 lasted. Between the time it started and Cold Wars it was around three weeks, but after that... there's not really any indication. I can't actually think of any evidence in V5 that actually says 2007 or 2008, but there are things which say 2009, so I don't actually know what is contradicting the timeline. --mc_hammark 15:01, 27 January 2010 (EST)
                  • Every piece of explicit evidence in V5 has pointed at starting in September 2009 and moving toward at least December 2009, if not 2010. I'd hesitate to say they're in 2010 yet, as the "that's so two months ago" bit could refer to anytime in the eight weeks Sylar was in Parkman's head. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 15:33, 27 January 2010 (EST)

Ian and Teddy

Just trying to keep track of all the carnies that was in this episode. I didn't see Ian Michaels but I'm sure I saw Teddy. Can anyone verify this for me please? -- SlicinDicinEdgar

  • I'm 99% sure I saw Teddy. It was hard because most of the carnies were wearing their street clothes in this episode and not their carnival uniforms. (It's amazing how much the clothes make the man!) Anyway, I haven't gone back to rewatch the episode yet, but Teddy's page has been updated to reflect his appearance in The Art of Deception. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 08:07, 27 January 2010 (EST)
    • That's cool. I rewatched it and I saw Teddy, as well as Ian at the end. However, I think I saw the game operator during Samuel's giving up speech. Would it be alright to add him? -- SlicinDicinEdgar
      • Only if he's actually there. I'll have to rewatch to double check... -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 11:13, 27 January 2010 (EST)
        • I think the game operator there was during the final monologue of Samuel ... he had his classic hat :) --TanderixUTCR 19:07 (italy), January 27, 2010

Worst nightmare

Matt said that sylar wouldnt remember what matt did to him once he left but when he left, sylar was calling for matt. How'd he remember? daevon 16:34, 29 January 2010 (EST)

  • Possibly meaning he wouldn't remember the fact he told him he was locked in a nightmare. In that case, it would just seem as though Matt and everyone else in the world disappeared. That or Matt didn't really wipe his memory of it, or did it a few minutes after he left. --mc_hammark 16:36, 29 January 2010 (EST)

So peter and sylar teaming up

It's almost mirroring peter and nathan's team up at the end of last season.Gamerelite1 16:55, 29 January 2010 (EST)

  • Sylar's entire storyline this season has been mirroring Nathan's season one storyline, writ large. It's not surprising, given how his body spent the first half of the season.--Clairesxtwin48 17:46, 29 January 2010 (EST)

Rebel

Anyone else think Rebel should make an appearance and help the other Heroes take down the Carnival? West got mentioned this season when Peter asked Claire to call him so Peter could copy his power for 2 seconds. And since Tracey is making an appearance again, surely somewhere in her absence Micah went looking for her. I would really like to see them and Claude again. I think a Sparrow vs. Samuel fight would be cool to see too. AHB 23:30, 29 January 2010 (EST)

Ok just read the newest GN maybe Tracey's out, maybe not, I still want to see Rebel. AHB 23:34, 29 January 2010 (EST)
  • Ooh, Sparrow v. Samuel! I like it! And even though they probably won't do it, it would be nice to know what happened to Micah after Sylar kicked him out... --Clairesxtwin48 23:38, 29 January 2010 (EST)
    • Given that the carnival has little to no technology, Micah would be COMPLETELY useless, West would be able to give them a ride and not much else, while Abby's forcefields would be overwhelmed by the massive amount of specials at the carnival with unknown abilities. Also, I really don't think Sparrow would be any match for Samuel, given his god-like degree of power. I personally disliked the Rebellion story arc so my opinion may be biased, but I highly doubt Rebel will show up during this volume, it's a little late in the game and viewers may become confused if four kids arrive to take down the carnival from hell and the evolved human anti-christ. They wouldn't fit in that environment.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 12:14, 31 January 2010 (EST)
      • Your statement about Sparrow's ability being different and not being a rival for Samuel is accurate. But that doesn't mean that an individual with a weaker power and a greater degree of tactical skill couldn't win. Anybody remember Daphne pwning Peter, back when he still had ALL his abilities, including hers? And though I agree that it is a bit late in the game to introduce that plot twist, it's still infuriating that they've got Micah drifting around out there doing... we don't know what... and not even having the decency to give his character any resolution. Having him attempt to stop Samuel sounds like something Micah would do. And hey, with regards to West, I somehow think he could do a little more than giving them a ride. Remember Nathan taking out Baron Samedi? Flight isn't entirely useless. --Clairesxtwin48 14:21, 31 January 2010 (EST)
        • We've definitely seen West use his power offensively before, both in the Rebellion arc and in the show (he took out Elle, right?). And I disagree that Abigail would be overwhelmed. Maybe after a while yes, but she could still use them ofensively (ex: punching Elle, untying Micah's binds); she seems to have gained more control over her ability, as shown by the latter example I used. Sparrow could possibly beat Samuel... but I doubt they would have them truly battle in the show, it would be too much money to produce those kind of effects. Micah could always bring some technology to aid him, not to mention he would be able to control the rides, thats technology. I doubt it would actually happen, but it would be great to see. --Skullman1392 14:40, 31 January 2010 (EST)
          • Yeah, Abigail wouldn't be all that overwhelmed. Given that the carnies (although unofficially) have few offensive powers, more defensive, and that Abigail's can be both, I'd say she'd kick the crap out of them. Only Samuel would probably be able to stop her. And I'd love to see Micah control the Ferris wheel, have it spinning round at massive speeds like a giant saw. But that kinda disappointed me; Micah warned Tracy that if she killed any of the Building 26 agents, he would find her and make her regret it... nothing's happened. --mc_hammark 15:17, 31 January 2010 (EST)
            • I figured that Sparrow would get the power boost too. After all, she said she was unable to control the earth without standing directly on it, but after being surrounded by the specials on the flight, she was able to summon up the earth while in mid-air.--Gibbeynator 17:56, 31 January 2010 (EST)
        • I guess you're somewhat right.... that would totally stop me from watching the show though..... Samuel would definitely beat Sparrow however--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:41, 31 January 2010 (EST)
          • That's a good point. They've never established if the power boost was just a terrakinesis thing or if it was unique to Samuel. And I am ALL for seeing Sparrow brought over into mainstream Heroes! I actually think she would stand a solid chance against Samuel, though. Again, I reference Daphne and Peter's fist fight (read: Daphne beating the living crap out of Peter) in I Am Become Death. --Clairesxtwin48 20:43, 31 January 2010 (EST)
            • I Guess You'd Have To Ask Noah, The Company Would Have Probably Compared Several Terrakinetics, The Same Way They Probably Compared Speedsters, So He Would Probably Know If Sparrow Could Do That. It Does Seem Like Something The Company Would Do. --mc_hammark 20:44, 31 January 2010 (EST)

Eli

So he can clone weapons two? -- (WaterRatj) 01:51, 6 February 2010 (EST)

  • Yep. He's been able to do that since the Prodigals arc when he was introduced. Swm 06:53, 6 February 2010 (EST)
    • Now that's a bit foolish :p lol then he can clone anything he cant, imagine him holding a car lol -- (WaterRatj) 17:22, 6 February 2010 (EST)
      • If a clone can clone his clothes (Julien didn't seem to be able to, but all the others could), then it makes complete sense to me that a clone could clone anything he's holding, too. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:45, 6 February 2010 (EST)
        • Yeah but their seems like unlimited potential their :D -- (WaterRatj) 22:45, 6 February 2010 (EST)

Matt

When Sylar had Janice, telekinesiscatily pin to the wall, why didn't Matt implant a thought into Sylar head, for him to let go and convince him he could block his abilities.--50000JH 12:13, 3 May 2010 (EDT)

  • Sylar is strong? Matt doesn't think well under pressure? There wasn't enough time? Take your pick. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:05, 3 May 2010 (EDT)