Talk:Bliss and horror

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Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
1. Canon Sources Episodes
Webisodes,
Graphic Novels,
iStories,
Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources Episode commentary,
Interviews,
Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities Descriptions
6. Possessor's name If no non-speculative
description is possible

Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine bliss and horror's name.
Source/Explanation
Text from It Takes a Village, Part 1 explicitly names this ability.
Archives Archived Topics
June 2007-July 2007 The Guillame seri

Power Names

Here's the way I think about power names (not that it's an official position or anything--I just want to clarify why I feel the way I do in any given case).

  • Is it named in an episode or graphic novel?--If so, we're pretty much stuck with that. "Induced radioactivity" and "rapid cell regeneration" are both mouthfuls that could probably have better names, but alas, that's what they're called. Now, it's possible these could change, but it would pretty much take a new canon example to override them (Mohinder to Claire: "My father was wrong! Your cells don't regenerate -- you steal cells from extradimensional copies of yourself!")
  • Is it named in secondary sources?--A similar case can be made for calling Matt's ability "telepathy". It's been called that in interviews and promotional materials, as well as in his Heroes 360 dossier, so we're stuck with that, too, even though he can't project thoughts.
  • Is there a common name for this power already?--Big examples of this would be "pyrokinesis" and "telekinesis". I wouldn't be a fan of either of these if they weren't already so well-established in comic books and parapsychology.

Once those two options are exhausted (and only then), it's time to consider making up a name. Here's how I look at it:

  • Is the name speculative?--It's important to consider if the name is speculating about either the effects or the mechanics of the power. For example, we could call Nathan's power "self-propulsion" (which is much fancier than "flight", and therefore probably "better" to some minds), but we don't actually know how he flies, only that he flies. For example, Magneto was originally said to be able to fly by "severing magnetic lines of force" (whatever that means), effectively canceling gravity. He didn't propel himself. And Guardian was able to disengage himself from Earth's gravitational pull, allowing him to stay stationary while the Earth rotated under him, effectively letting him fly west (and only west) very fast. It's unlikely Nathan flies in either of these fashions, but the point is that observable flight doesn't necessarily mean propulsion.
  • Is the name broad enough?--Does it cover everything we've seen the character do?
  • Is the name too broad?--Does it imply an ability to do things we haven't seen?
  • Is the name straight-forward?--I, personally, will always prefer a plain-English name to a neologism--mostly because most such words end up being either over- or under-inclusive, and people frequently abuse the hell out of Latin and Greek roots and affixes, using them to mean things they simply do not mean. This leads to a confusing power name. As a rule, if somebody needs to grab a dictionary--and particularly a foreign language dictionary--to understand why a power has a given name, it's a bad name for the power.
  • The very last thing I consider is how the name sounds. The coolest-sounding name is no good if it's unnecessarily technical, speculative, or over- or under-broad.

With that in mind, my approach to this power is thus: 1) we have a name for it from the graphic novel; 2) even though a lot of people dislike that name, we don't have a compelling canon reason to override it; 3) there isn't another widely-accepted name for this ability; 4) the suggestions for alternatives are either speculative, overbroad, underinclusive, or unnecessarily technical.

I think it's important that we work through this now because chances are better than not that, with the emphasis on other cultures next season (to say nothing of a story set centuries in the past), we'll be getting lots more canon power names that might not sound fancy or formal enough--and that, as far as I'm concerned, is tough. We're just going to have to deal with "the drunken monkey's kiss" or "stench of a thousand corpses" or whatever they throw at us and avoid the impulse to come up with things like "putrification manipulation" or "biodegradokinesis" and the like. Canon wins, plain and simple.--Hardvice (talk) 16:32, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

  • Sounds like the beginning to a standard, which is just what I was hoping to see come about. I found your mentioning of different cultures to be interesting. It occurs to me that with these special abilities having a global scope and existing throughout time that the name of the power itself reflects the culture in which it was exhibited. Our original powers originated from Chandra's research who, as a scientist, applied scientific names to each of the powers. Since his research was the basis for our original naming, it stuck as a general convention. As we see how different cultures interpret these powers, I can see a certain value in preserving the cultural interpretation of that power when naming it here instead of requiring everything to conform to what was essentially Chandra's method of naming the powers. (Admin 16:46, 2 July 2007 (EDT))
  • Thank you for breaking that down, Hardvice. I think you outlined nicely a general guideline for power naming conventions, which has been informally adhered to in the past, but may need to be a stricter guideline in the near future. I believe that you touched on the heart of why this page is so long--"bliss and horror" is a good name given to us, but it's odd as hell. (Incidentally, I'm enjoying how much discussion this one GN power has generated--it's fantastic that it's brought up some bigger issues, too.) You're right, we as a community really need to come to a consensus not so much on the name of this power (although we definitely do) but on the big picture of naming powers altogether. Your breakdown seems logical and in keeping with the philosophy of our site, though I'd personally rank speculation above being too broad or too narrow, but that's a minor point. :) And, for the record, I'm really looking forward to "the drunken monkey's kiss". -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:53, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
    • Good point re: the order of the questions. I didn't actually intend for it to be hierarchical, but since I mention that I consider the "coolness" of the name last, it probably should be (and I've edited my original comment to reflect this).--Hardvice (talk) 17:08, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
      • To bad this is a wiki and not a church....we could just form a 'name the power committee' and let the populace embrace or detest the naming-committee's choice. Perhaps eventually, with a guideset for naming similar to what you've started above, that might be a workable approach. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 07/2/2007 18:14 (EST)
        • Thanks, Hardvice. I've repeatedly ask for those guidelines and had been waiting for that for a while. But there's one more thing, and that's that some of the answers can have a degree of personal bias, and that's okay--but Admin needs to state clearly who gets the final say on the name: if the fans (not-the-admin), then we either change it to "emotion manipulation" or hold a new vote; if it's by admin majority, there are still a few left who haven't chipped in; and if it's The Admin himself, then we should change to "psychoactivity" and put this one to sleep for now.--MiamiVolts (talk) 18:27, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
        • PS: I am no way agreeing that canon provides the best name, but I thought I mention another possibility. Thru the magic of redirects, can we have both names? Ie. Could we list on the page both the canon and fan-chosen name when they differ?--MiamiVolts (talk) 18:52, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
          • Canon doesn't provide the "best" name, it provides the name. Canon power names are actually the only part of this that is already an established rule. I mean, if they say it's called "induced radioactivity", then it's called "induced radioactivity". We can't change that any more than we could decide Mr. Bennet's first name is really "Abraham" instead of "Noah". Accurately reporting canon content is our first function.--Hardvice (talk) 19:42, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
          • I don't see any reason why we couldn't have a redirect from a reasonable description to a canonical name. I'm not opposed to that, especially if other sites refer to the name that particular way. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:56, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
            • Not talking about other sites. If Admin isn't willing to come to a decision as to who has the final say, we could name the power page "Guillame's power" with redirects from "emotion manipulation" and "Bliss and horror". On the page itself, we would list both names (fan and canon) in the description and infobox. The advantage of this is that it avoid arguments as to which should be the page's name and it still has some teeth (as Hardvice so delicately put it).--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:11, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
              • I'm not a fan of needlessly calling it "Guillame's power" just to avoid people getting upset at the name. I don't like the name "rapid cell regeneration", but I wouldn't think about changing the page to "Claire's power". For better or worse, we have a name that works. I personally don't mind an "emotional manipulation" redirect (or whatever), but I don't think the power should be called "Guillame's power". -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:42, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
                • Are you okay with calling it "Emotion manipulation" and redirecting from "Bliss and horror"? If you are, then maybe we've made progress...--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:58, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
                  • No. "Bliss and horror" was given in a canon source. "Emotional manipulation" was not. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:01, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
                    • Then we're still left with Admin determining what has final say (the users' vote, the admin vote or his personal opinion).--MiamiVolts (talk) 23:05, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
                      • In cases like this where after considerable effort there is no community consensus then it comes down to administrative consensus. If there is no administrative consensus, then I make the decision. We've heard from Ryan and Hardvice. I would like to see other administrators discuss this as well to see if we already have administrative consensus. (Admin 00:20, 3 July 2007 (EDT))
                        • Thanks for commenting Admin, but for the record, "emotion manipulation" won the users vote over "keep it the same" by almost a 2:1 margin. That doesn't qualify as consensus? This is totally about admin appeal (not community consensus), imho. Assuming the administrators vote proceeds, Ted has also already piped in today. We're mainly waiting on Bob. Orne's been gone since March.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:37, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
                          • Voting is only a mechanism to help determine whether consensus already exists, it does not determine consensus. Wikipedia has some info on consensus decision-making to help clarify. (Admin 01:42, 3 July 2007 (EDT))
                            • There's different models listed in that help. But if we're going by the rough consensus model, the help says "the question of consensus is left to the judgment of the working group chair"--that's why I asked.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:56, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
                          • Sorry for the delay. Work's been killing me (just got off less than an hour ago). I put earlier in the talk page that I wanted to stay with "bliss and horror" because it's not speculative and clearly states what the ability is. I still hold that true since the other proposed names do not fulfill this. So my apologies for not chiming in earlier, but I've just been really bogged down with work and trying to rest.--Bob 03:33, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
                          • As admins, we enforce the standards of the wiki. Community consensus can't override a standard -- if everybody agreed to speculate that Hiro is Peter's dad, or everybody agreed that the recently-published Season Two ending wasn't a spoiler, it wouldn't matter. In this case, the administrators are in consensus that "bliss and horror" is the canon name given (and that's really the question--not "is 'bliss and horror' the best name?", but "is 'bliss and horror' meant to be a name for the power?", since we always use canon names when given) and that the other suggestions are speculative.--Hardvice (talk) 04:01, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
                            • It is questionable whether "bliss and horror" is meant to be a power name. The admin vote is 3-2, unless Ted and Admin changed their minds and I don't know about it; and it's Admin that determines whether that defines admintrative consensus.--MiamiVolts (talk) 09:20, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
                              • For what it's worth, I'm going to say "leave it be", at least for now. --Ted C 09:39, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
                              • I say leave it be as well. I am ok with it as the name for the ability. (Admin 09:44, 3 July 2007 (EDT))
  • Wow. That's one hell of a read. I was totally persuaded by the "It's canon" argument. I didn't realize so much thought really went into this. "Bliss and Horror" FTW!!! --Mish 00:29, 14 November 2007 (EST)
    • Either a lot of thought, or a really boring summer. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:32, 14 November 2007 (EST)
  • I vote for Emotion Manipulation. --Snow Leapord 07:57, 2 March 2008 (EST)

emotional manipulation

bliss and horror is not a poper name for his power can we change this name to emotional manipulation or empathic projection , since i watched an episode of x-men i saw the similarties between what he can do with annalee, either empathic projection or emotional manilulation would be a good name for his power--Zoga78 19:17, 18 April 2008 (EDT)

  • Check out the archive discussion here as emotional manipulation has already been mentioned and it was decided to go with "Bliss and horror" since that's how the power was referenced in the story.--MiamiVolts (talk) 19:30, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
    • Why are you ressurecting dead duscusions? --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 01:29, 19 April 2008 (EDT)
      • Maybe because they didn't know. Probably why. Jason Garrick 18:13, 30 April 2008 (EDT)
    • I wish I could change it into something that sounds a bit more scientific than something like "Bliss and Horror" if the subject ever comes up again or you guys would like to take a look into voting again, I would try emotion projection or inducement. However if people feel that calling Sound Manipulation "Super Screaming" instead, then by all means keep it this way. --DontEatRawHagis 00:19, 10 May 2009 (EDT)
      • Actually, I kind of like that it's not a scientific-sounding name. The It Takes a Village arc was very much not a scientific-based story. In fact, it was quite religious and spiritually based. I like that the name of the power reflects that. It reflects the essence of Guillame, in my opinion. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:39, 10 May 2009 (EDT)