Talk:Bliss and horror/Archive 1

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Name Voting

OK, let's try to keep this neat and clean. Only vote once, and follow the example. Add a new title if you don't see one you would vote for.

Note that the title that gets the most votes will not necessarily be the one chosen. The name will still have to be non-speculative about how the power operates and follow other standards and rules of the wiki. The admins will make determinations about whether a title is appropriate before implementing a change.

Please do not use this section for discussion; keep that in the sections below.

As of Wednesday, June 27, voting on this topic may be considered closed. The admins are discussing the results and whether or not the popular titles a sufficiently non-speculative based on what we know.

Name Discussion (Part 1)

The name used is the one given a few times in It Takes a Village, Part 1. It can be changed if/when we find out more details about the power. As with any new power page, I tried to keep all speculation off, of course, and stick to what can be observed. If there's any speculation, it can be removed and/or discussed here. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:16, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

  • Um, if the description is "the ability to manipulate moods of others", why didn't you go for mood manipulation? --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 21:24, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
    • I guess I was just throwing something in there. Like I said, feel free to change something that needs to be changed. I'll go ahead and fix it now. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:29, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
      • Lets just wait for the end of the hatians story maybe they will give us the correct name if nor I would like to suggest emotion control for a name--Addude 22:37, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
        • I vote we put a more realistic name for the power until more details become available. It's obvious that "Bliss and Horror" won't be the permanent name for it, so we might as well ditch it now. Emotional Manipulation is a better placeholder until more details become available.--Piemanmoo 23:21, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
          • I don't know if it's obvious that the name won't stay. Hopefully the next two GNs will enlighten us a little more. However, if they don't, then we're stuck with what we know, which is not much. In any case, I'm not sure it's emotions that Guillame manipulates. Possible, but not sure. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:35, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
            • Personally, I highly doubt that he manipulates emotions. Nausea and vomiting are purely physical sensations. One of the Tonton Macoutes also seems to be grimacing in pain. If he manipulated emotions and used that ability to "attack" someone, I would expect the victim to become depressed or (more useful in that situation) extremely fearful. He seems to be able to make the villagers euphoric, but he might be doing that without manipulating the emotions directly. For instance, he might be able to make people relaxed and/or energetic. Conduit 00:36, 6 June 2007 (EDT)
              • Is it at all posible that he has the same power as his son, mental manipulation. I mean, it makes sense. He would project mentally the feelings of "bliss and horror" into others minds. And with the guy that puked his guts, thats another example I have. Project the feeling of nausea into his mind and eventually he will feel that way. Anyone get what I'm saying?--The Empath 20:56, 6 June 2007 (EDT)
                • The similarities in their powers seem to be that they both somehow affect the mind. However, the Haitian blocks the powers of others and erases memories. Guillame hasn't shown that he can do that--instead he makes people feel great or feel like crap. The Haitian has never shown that he can do that. Well, at least not directly. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:10, 6 June 2007 (EDT)
                  • "Mind manipulation", perhaps? It's a different name than "mental manipulation". The mind would then relate to all the emotions, feelings, etc. people have, rather than their memories and what they can do. --DocM 08:43, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
                    • Yes, but "mind manipulation" sure sounds a lot like "mental manipulation" (and really means just about the same thing), and I wouldn't want to name the power anything that would be potentially confusing. Besides, are we sure it's the people's minds he's manipulating? It's a pretty good bet, but we're still just not quite sure yet. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 08:48, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
                      • I'd take anything over "Bliss and Horror" right now. It's destroying my online OCD. What about "Health Manipulation"? It's mainly mental health, but health nonetheless.
                        -- GuitarHiro 22:49, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
  • Well so far Emotion Manipulation is winning....--Hero!(talk)(contribs) 19:58, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

Name Discussion (Part 2)

My impression is that he affects the pain and pleasure centers of the brain. I'm not sure what you'd call that, though. "Pain/Pleasure Induction" violates my aesthetic rules. --Ted C 16:21, 7 June 2007 (EDT)

  • I'd like to see that rule book. :) Yeah, I think you're on the right track, Ted. I have a feeling it'll be something like "mood manipulation" when we're done with all four GNs. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:52, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
    • Thing is, I don't think the power affects mood, at least not directly. I don't think he's making people feel happy or sad: I think he's making them feel physically sick ("horror") or like they're having a continouous orgasm ("bliss"). Moods swings will probably follow, but they're indirect effects --Ted C 17:59, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
      • Good point, and exactly the reason we probably shouldn't come up with any name right now--you know, that whole avoiding speculation thing. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 18:58, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
        • Thanks, Ted, for semi-agreeing with me. As I noted before and hinted below, I agree that it's too early to change the name.--MiamiVolts (talk) 19:08, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
          • How about "Pain &Pleasure Induction"? I don't see anything wrong with a three-word power. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 23:57, 9 June 2007 (EDT)

Name Discussion (Part 3)

  • I still think it could be hormone manipulation, but I'm starting to think he'd have to both cause a lady to grow a mustache and help a mom to breast feed in order to convince the majority of that. LOL.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:12, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
    • Not that hormone manipulation couldn't have the effects we've seen, but I doubt we'll ever get that exact an explanation of just how he causes pain or pleasure. --Ted C 09:38, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
      • I kind of like "bliss and horror" but if you want something more like the others, I was thinking "perception alteration" but that is probably to speculative, how about "sensation manipulation" -Lөvөl 11:49, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
        • I would tend more toward "sensation control". "Mental manipulation" has alliteration going for it, but "sensation manipulation" just gets long and tedious to say without any redeeming poetic features. Naming a power in a way that both looks good on paper (or screen) and sounds good when said aloud can be surprisingly difficult. --Ted C 12:19, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
        • "sensation manipulation" Rimes ;), "sensation control" could work. -Lөvөl 12:30, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
          • If we don't get any better proof of it being a hormone-related power, you can consider my vote the third for "sensation control".--MiamiVolts (talk) 13:48, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
            • My vote is for Mental Manipulation, but I don't read the online comics.--The Empath 14:01, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
              • The problem with using Mental manipulation is that it's already taken: we've assigned that name to The Haitian's power (although I might argue that "mental interference" describes what he does better). --Ted C 15:46, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
                • I like "sensation control". It seems to fit with what we know about the power right now. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 19:50, 8 June 2007 (EDT)
                  • Just for the record, it is quite possible that he is projecting hallucinations, and not controlling emotions or sensations, though it is also quite possible of the latter. This is why I feel it should remain as named.Guy 23:46, 12 June 2007 (EDT)

Cmon guys, admit it

  • I think I got the problem. No one likes the name bliss and horror, that's why everyone is complaining. If everyone just feels a hatred then why don't we discuss a list of possible names. We did it with Molly. Jason Garrick 16:28, 9 June 2007 (EDT)
    • Actually I don't mind the name. I don't think it's the best, but I think it's a fine description and I like the poetry of the name. Sure, we could discuss the name all we want, but in the end, anything we come up with will be speculative. Hopefully we'll learn more about the power in the next two issues, and then we can find a name that won't be assuming anything. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:26, 9 June 2007 (EDT)
      • That's a good point. I remember reading the ordeal about "Being who can see Molly who is worse than the Boogeyman and can possibly mirror clairvoyance" article. I just hope the next comic has Guillame explaining to his son or his people what it is he can do. One can only hope! -- GuitarHiro 03:25, 10 June 2007 (EDT)
    • I'm very much in favor of the current name. I dont like it, but anything else is too speculative right now and if we never get more insight as to his power then I'd opt to just leave it as is. As far as I'm concerned, if we want a better name for the power then the writers are interviewed often and they should be asked directly as to the nature of his power so that we can give it an accurate name. (Admin 12:54, 11 June 2007 (EDT))
      • ...speaking of which, I haven't heard back from Staz yet, but there's no surprises there. It doesn't look like CBR will be any more Q&A sessions until season two starts. Maybe the next GN will be done by one of the Kotzebue brothers or Micah, who seem to be bit more responsive. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:00, 11 June 2007 (EDT)
        • I agree with Admin. I absolutely despise the name but everything else is speculative (unlike molly [still bittered faced over clairvoyance]) and for right now it is the best description (right now) I do not like perception or sensation control (manipulation whatever) because he has to this point only produced ecstasy or horror. I don't even think it is pain and pleasure(might be, but just as well could not be) when I first read it I thought it was about a projection or hallucination of sort, much like drugs that cause both blissful and horrifying hallucinations. And for the guy who thinks it is hormone control, substance p, dopamine, and serotonin are the causes for pain and pleasure (which I am not agreeing that pain and pleasure are synonymous with bliss and horror). Though many other neurotransmitters exist in hormone form, dopamine is the only one out of these three that has a counterpart. I think it should remain bliss and horror until more (if any) is revealed about the causes and what the bliss and horror involve whether it is hallucinations or pain and pleasure. If it is hallucination, I would move toward hallucination projection.Guy 23:40, 12 June 2007 (EDT)
        • Cast my vote. "Sensation Control" is the best option IMO. It's generic enough to not imply too much, and I don't see why it's a problem that he has only produced ecstasy or horror. Many of the other powers listed here have limitations that are not hinted by their names ("Mental Manipulation" and "Clairvoyance" being two of them). I also don't think it's particularly relevant if Guillame is causing sensations through hormones, mind tricks, illusions or whatever. The end result is that targets of the power feel great or crappy. And I have a feeling we'll not learn the specifics of it in future stories. "Bliss and Horror" shouldn't be used because it sticks out like a sore thumb. All the other powers have scientific-sounding names, while Bliss and Horror sounds like the poetic description of an ancient spell. Just doesn't sound like Heroes. Renenarciso 18:05, 13 June 2007 (EDT)
          • That's exactly how I feel, Rene. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 19:30, 13 June 2007 (EDT)
          • I'm going to have to disagree. Must we always complicate things? Not every name has to be "scientific" or "professional". It may not sound like Heroes, but it's in the Heroes graphic novel, so it's Heroes. Seriously, Guillame states, "I am bliss and I am horror..." The Haitian says, "Bliss and horror. My father's tools. My father's gift." I don't know how simple they have to make it. They said the name telekinesis a few times, and it was simple. Bliss and horror is simple, and we should leave it at that.--Ice Vision 22:21, 13 June 2007 (EDT)
            • Great points, Ice Vision. The name is different from some of our other powers, but it's wrong to say it doesn't sound like Heroes--the name is from the Heroes world. It doesn't sound like Heroes Wiki, and that's fine with me....I should also point out that "clairvoyance" comes from the show (see Genesis Files), and "mental manipulation" is the only way we could come up with a name to describe one power that seemingly has two aspects to it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:41, 13 June 2007 (EDT)
            • The blunt of the story is couched in scientific terms, and most powers here have been named after the Sureshes' and the Company's research. If the story branches into different times and different cultures, as I'm sure it will in the second session, we can have many more power names in different styles. A metahuman in ancient Japan may have "The Five Ancient Gods Vitality" when he is really just invulnerable, while a street thief in Ireland may have "My Mojo", when all he has is Enhanced Charisma. Will we use the names these characters give their abilities themselves? Or the names a Western scientist would give them if he were researching them? I don't think it's encyclopedic or ellegant to use mystical or slang terms for the powers' names, when most of the powers are viewed through a scientific paradigm. Many powers have never been named (or at least I don't think they were), and in those cases we used names that sounded like the ones that WERE named. We still don't know if Niki Sanders is using a variant of telekinesis, or if her body produces some super-adrenalin-like substance, or if there is something about her tissues that is different from a normal human's and Niki didn't use it because she was holding herself back and never even tried punching somebody. Whatever the exact mechanism is, we just named it Enhanced Strength, because that is the effect. Why bother if Guillame is producing hormones or images or emotions, when the effect is simply that he makes people feel stuff (Sensation Control)? Well, in any case, it seems like Sensation Control is winning.Renenarciso 23:02, 13 June 2007 (EDT)
            • Just my final words on it. May I also point out that "Bliss and Horror" is as "vague" as the other names, beyond sounding unscientific? I can see the bliss part, okay okay, but the horror bit? One guy seemed to be having a headache and the other was vomiting. They weren't cowering in fear or muttering with their eyes shut, as you'd expect of someone feeling abject horror. "Horror" can mean so many things that as a power name it's effectively meaningless. Someone could name Sylar's power theft as a "Horror", or even Ted Sprague's powers, or even aspects of Candice Willmer's abilities. They're all as "Horror" as what Guillame does. Renenarciso 23:11, 13 June 2007 (EDT)
              • Carts before horses. "Horror" is not a word we chose to describe the power, it's a word used more than once in the novels that shed light on what the guys were feeling. We wouldn't call Sylar's or Ted's or anyone else's powers "horror" since that's not how they refer to the power....As for the idea that we would use names for powers that the characters give, well, yes, we would. Provided it's not a nickname like "My Mojo", if a character somehow says the name of his power (both Niki and D.L. have called D.L.'s power "phasing, for instance), yes, we would most likely use it. Thank goodness we are not an encyclopedic site, and are not bound by using scientific terms to describe supernatural powers. We are a fan site, and we use the canon of the show as much as we can. I don't like the name of Claire's power at all, but I didn't name it--Chandra did. Where it becomes necessary to deviate from canon (for the purposes of naming an article, for instance), we try to use as little speculation as possible. I haven't heard a name for Guillame's power that does that. And though "bliss and horror" is not perfect (though it's growing on me), it's what's given to us. We don't have a charter to sound scientific--our goal is to document the show as accurately as possible. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:43, 13 June 2007 (EDT)

Voting deadline

Are the admins going to set a deadline for this vote or the one for Molly's villain? Also, I suggested adding voting to current events, but no one has replied...--MiamiVolts (talk) 12:26, 11 June 2007 (EDT)

  • I don't think a deadline is necessary for this article. As it is, it shouldn't be changed. We have two more graphic novels that will presumably shed more light on Guillame's power. If that's the case, then we'll go forward with a name change, most likely based on the above voting. If they flash forward and never talk about Guillame's power again, then we should probably keep "bliss and horror" since everything else is a little too speculative. The discussion can continue, of course, but I don't think a deadline is necessary--it all kind of depends on what's revealed to us. As for a link on current events, I don't think it's a bad idea, but I'm not really that gung ho about it. I didn't respond because I'm somewhat ambivalent. I think a better place to have a link for pages to be renamed would be on Template:Todo or Template:Todo2. But that's just me. If you want a link on current events, there's nothing stopping you. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:39, 11 June 2007 (EDT)
    • Thanks for the input, but Pages to be renamed are not the same to me as Pages with active name voting. Some pages may have the {{rename}} tag but have not begun voting, so I've added the links to current events.--MiamiVolts (talk) 14:00, 11 June 2007 (EDT)
  • I think it's safe to say we won't make a decision on the name until after It Takes a Village, Part 4, at least. --Ted C 12:56, 12 June 2007 (EDT)

There is an established name.

I feel that this should be the name, really because it's concise and rather simple.

Nimpathy:

"A sharing of sensations; a community of feeling. One is able to transmit actual sensations to any group of people." I mean, is that not what Guillame does? (That is an actual definition, btw.)

  • That sounds made up. Where did you find it? --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 17:17, 11 June 2007 (EDT)
  • It's not in any dictionary I've ever found and google returns only seven results. I believe somebody on Obiwan's UFO-Free Message Board made it up. To the best of my knowledge, there is no Greek suffix nim, either. It looks like somebody was trying to be clever. I highly doubt the authenticity of the "actual definition". Besides, even if it were an actual word, I'm still not sure "community of feeling" describes what Guillame did to the Tonton Macoutes. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:26, 11 June 2007 (EDT)

The power in pt 4

In pt 4 of It takes a Village, the Haitian names the power bio-chemical aberrance.--MiamiVolts (talk) 09:39, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

  • I'm not sure he's "naming" the power. I think he's referring to powers in general, not to his father's specific power. He says he knows nothing of genetics first; in that context, it's difficult to say whether he's being specific or general. "Abberance" just means a deviation, so it's even more difficult to tell. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 09:53, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
    • He also says that his father's power has returned, and that he experienced shame instead of bliss or horror. It's very clear, imho, that the old power name is incomplete and that we should use bio-chemical aberrance instead.--MiamiVolts (talk) 10:16, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
      • I don't think shame is something induced by Guillaume's power. It's just a natural feeling that Haitian has when his father tells him that he needs to be destroyed. --Ted C 15:08, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
        • Agree. I don't think Guillame tried to actively make his son feel ashamed. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
    • I also don't believe he was talking about Guillame's power specifically, but instead collectively referring to special abilities as "biochemical aberrances". "Biochemical aberrance" doesn't accurately describe Guillame's specific ability, but it does describe the cause of his ability. (Admin 10:28, 19 June 2007 (EDT))
    • In context, biochemical aberrance could describe Guillaume's power, but it could also describe a mental illness that affected Guillaume's behavior enough to drive him to attack his son, or it could refer to the foundation of superhuman powers in general. We unfortunately never got anything very clear from this graphic novel. --Ted C 11:16, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

The Guillame series is over, and the name is not clearly resolved

The power 'Bliss and horror' now also contains a new emotion in Part 4, -- shame. Therefore, I would like to suggest being consistent with our other named powers.

  • See above. I don't think the Haitian's shame is something induced by Guillaume's power; it's just something he feels because of the situation: his father regarding him as a "poison" and a "cancer". Because his power slips, his father is able to incapacitate, but also keep him from suffering. Still, I can see how it might be interpreted the other way. --Ted C 15:12, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
  • xxx-kinesis would be my most desirable choice, but we haven't come up with any xxx terms that best fit this power and fit with the kinesis suffix.
    • I simply do not understand why everyone loves "-kinesis" names for powers that have nothing to do with movement. It's like having the ability to talk to plants and calling it "plant garbage can" -- "-kinesis" is derived from an actual word with an actual meaning, and can't simply be appended to any available root word to give "the power to (do thing x)". Sometimes a "-kinesis" word will make sense (pyrokinesis -- the ability to move fire; cryokinesis -- the ability to move cold), but usually it won't.--Hardvice (talk) 15:42, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
  • xxx-Control is somewhat more palatable, but we only have one power using this form ('Plant Control'), and I think it too, should be changed to be more consistent with the other named powers.
  • xxx-Manipulation seems to be the most consistent choice. I think if we renamed 'Plant Control' to 'Plant Manipulation' and then also renamed 'Bliss and Horror' to 'Emotion Manipulation' we would make the powers list more consistent. This would leave us with the following related abilities in the power list:
    • Emotion Manipulation: (Guillame) The ability to manipulate the emotions of others
    • Dream Manipulation: (Sanjog) The ability to manipulate the dreams of others
    • Mental Manipulation: (Haitian) The ability to manipulate the minds of others
    • Plant Manipulation: (Au Co) The ability to manipulate plants
    • SpaceTime Manipulation: (Hiro) The ability to manipulate the SpaceTime Continuum

IMO, the more consistent we are with how we name the powers, the better. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 06/19/2007 11:42 (EST)

  • You make some good points, HDS. As the admin seem unlikely to accept bio-chemical manipulation or hormonal manipulation for the time being, I'm going to switch my vote again to Emotion Manipulation. Plus, shame is more of an emotion than a sensation.--MiamiVolts (talk) 12:00, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
    • Changed my vote. --DocM 12:09, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
    • I'm also more inclined to go with "emotion manipulation" or "emotional manipulation" at this point as well. (Admin 12:53, 19 June 2007 (EDT))
    • I'm good with it, too. --Ted C 12:57, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
      • Actually, thinking on it, I think "sensation" is more accurate than "emotion", although I'll still accept the latter without complaint. --Ted C 13:00, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
    • EC sounds good, though I still kind of like "Bliss and horror".--Bob 13:53, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
  • I'll take accuracy over consistency every day. I don't think "plant control" is the best name for what Au Co did, but it's loads better than "plant manipulation", which sounds like the ability to make already grown plants move or something. I don't like the idea of getting caught up in having all of our power names fall into the same pattern--to me, it's far more important that they accurately describe the power in question than that they look nice with the other power names. That said, I think "emotion manipulation" is acceptable (though I agree with Ted -- "sensation manipulation" seems more accurate with what we know about it).--Hardvice (talk) 15:48, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
    • Actually, the more I think about it, the less satisfied I am with either emotional manipulation or sensation manipulation. We simply don't know enough to say with any authority whether he's altering emotions (and the physical reactions are an effect), or whether he's altering sensations (and the emotions are an effect). In other words, we don't really know if the power is psychological or physiological (although it clearly has both effects), and emotion/sensation manipulation each imply one or the other. Bliss and horror, for all its shortcomings, doesn't. It merely suggests that he can bring about both positive and negative reactions without specifying how he does so.--Hardvice (talk) 22:13, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
      • It's a hard call, isn't it. I think Admin gave up trying to pin it down. :) Incidentally, I just emailed Joe Kelly to get his take on it. I'll let everybody know if he gets back to me. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:34, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

The problem is...

...that a lot of the names sound great, but are we really sure any of them are what he's doing? We've seen some great examples, but we know no more about the power than we did 3 weeks ago. I love the sound of "emotion manipulation" (but not "emotional manipulation", mind you), but I can't help but think that it's still speculating on exactly what Guillame is doing.... We've been given a fine name (and poetic, too). Even if it doesn't fit with the more scientific-sounding names that we've developed (or that Suresh has developed), it's still an acceptable name and description for the power. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:48, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

  • I think it's not too much of a stretch to go with Emotion Manipulaition. He has been shown to pretty much manipulate people's emotions. I personaly prefer anything but Bliss and Horror. --Piemanmoo 17:54, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
    • I don't think it's a stretch at all to go with Emotion Manipulation. Besides the questioned shame (which I think was a valid use of his power), there is also the "sexually hot" emotion he used to seduce woman (I doubt that it was simply bliss). Yes, I know that evidence is also circumstantial but you got to admit the circumstantial evidence is stacked pretty high.--MiamiVolts (talk) 18:12, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
      • I guess I'm just not sure, though the other names sound very good and are possibly good descriptions of the power, what is so wrong with "bliss and horror"? Other than personal preference or an opinionated dislike (which shouldn't be factors in choosing a name), I'm not sure why the name we were given--more than once--is so distasteful. Rather than trying to guess, conclude, or find evidence as to what he's doing, why not go with a fine description that the writers gave us? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:54, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
    • Emotion Manipulation sounds good to me. That title sounds more formal (which this site is aiming for, right?) than Bliss and Horror. -- User:SacValleyDweller 19 June 2007 23:05 (PDT)
      • I'm not so sure we are going for formality, but rather accuracy. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 02:23, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
        • Taking a step back what would a non-Heroes fan expect to see here as the title of this article? A formal sounding title, like "Emotion Manipulation", that is consistent with other article titles here or this informal "Bliss and Horror" tile? I suppose the bigger issue is: How seriously do we want to be taken? The more formal we sound, the more seriously we can be taken elsewhere on the internet, in my opinion. User:SacValleyDweller 20 June 2007 15:45 (PDT)
          • IMO Accuracy is more important that formality and respect. Plus Bliss and Horrors seem to me to be more hallucination projection than emotion/sensation control, it reminds me (a psychiatry candidate) of someone having a psychotic break. Therefore I believe it should remain Bliss and Horror. Guy 19:52, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
            • Hmm... Never thought that was what his power did but, Heck, that sounds just as plausible as Emotion Manipulation User:SacValleyDweller 20 June 2007 23:05 (PDT)
          • I'm not concerned with being taken seriously. If our content is good, then people will take us seriously. If not, then they won't. But that's not really the issue. And to be honest, if I were a casual reader of the graphic novels and was looking for information on Guillame's power, I would probably search for "Guillame's power". If that only turns up an image, or nothing substantial, I'd search for "Guillame", which would get me to this page all the same. But if I were still stuck, I'd probably search for the way the power is described in the novel. But if your concern is what a non-Heroes fan would think, I wouldn't be too concerned, this being a fansite and all. Even still, it wouldn't hurt to have appropriate redirects from "emotional manipulation" (or the better "emotion manipulation", or more accurate "sensation manipulation") to this page. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:56, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

Haitian and Guillame skit

  • This is my intake on what someone would say to Guillame (Or however you spell his name) if the haitian asked his dad what is power is. This isn't to affend anyone. Just to bring a little joy to the subject in the heated discussion.
  • Haitian: Hey daddy, what's your power?
  • Guillame: My power, well my power son is Bliss and Horror.
  • Haitian: *stares blankly at Guillame* hey daddy, what's your power?
  • Guillame: I just told you haitian... hmmm... you need a name...
  • Haitian: Oh god, i hope it isn't Bliss and Horror.
  • Guillame: There is nothing wrong with Bliss and Horror. I make people think of bliss and horror! See it fits.
  • Haitian: Yea I guess. But what about the vomiting and worrying about mothers. What is your power then Vomit and Mothers? C'mon dad!
  • Guillame: Ok, ya know what. I'm going to use my power of bliss and horror. *tries to*.
  • Haitian: hahahaha. Well i guess until you tell me more about your power we'll have to leave it... How about Bliss and horror manipulation.
  • Guillame: To the fields now!
  • Haitian: Fine I'm going!

I hope this brings light to the subject and makes everyone laugh. Until then *flies away, hits tree* I'm okay! If this is against rules, you can delete it. Until then, enjoy. Jason Garrick 13:29, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

  • That's great! When does he ask his father which of those many women is his mother? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:12, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
  • Thanks ryan, I decided I'm going to post little skits about the confusing and weird stuff in Heroes on my profile page. Jason Garrick 23:33, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
    • Don't forget to include something about how Nathan was able to hear Peter say, "Shoot me. There is no other way," from a really far distance...and then answered Claire. Hmm. Oh, and riddle me this: Audrey had been chasing Sylar for, what, four months, and knew his case inside out, and even chased him through the streets of Chicago, wouldn't she have recognized him when he tipped off the FBI about Ted? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:05, 21 June 2007 (EDT)

I've got the perfect solution!!

How about we just call it "Guillame's power"? That way, there's no speculation, no controversy, and no debate. Perfect solution! :) --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 21:59, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

  • Guillamekinesis.--Leshia 01:23, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
  • Gaaa, I'm tired of all these discussions. I'm this close → || to moving it to just "Guillame's power" --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 15:42, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
    • Do it....(anything would be better that 'bliss and horror' as an official, long-termed title of a power.) --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 07/2/2007 15:44 (EST)
      • I already said I'd rather have it de-listed than left as "bliss and horror". Go for it.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:48, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
  • Anyone else up for moving it to "Guillame's power"? --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 20:55, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
    • I'd rather we not. If we're going to rename it (which I still think is unnecessary), we should at least rename it to something better than the current name, not something completely lacking in information. That's the sort of "compromise" that works best in government, where they end up passing laws which don't actually have any teeth just to keep everybody happy.--Hardvice (talk) 21:08, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

... from Joe Kelly

I just got an email from Joe Kelly. He wasn't very helpful as for the name, but he certainly gives a nice perspective on the power.
As far as Guillame's power - no one would have named it in his village because they think of it as a spiritual power given by the Loa. However, I pitched it to the guys that he was a "Walking drug." So essentially, he could send you on a "good trip" (as he does during the ceremonies) or a "bad trip" (as he does to the Tonton Macoutes.) Not sure if that helps to codify it, but that's my take.
Interesting ... -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:09, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
  • So does anyone get any ideas from that? --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 14:13, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
    • No, just a cool take on it. Like he said, the villagers wouldn't have named the power. We only do because we have to for the sake of the article. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:15, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
      • Heh, call it "psychoactivity", or "psychotrophicity". Or "behaviour manipulation". Or "psychopharmakinesis". Oh, the amount of names that are capable of describing this power in weak ways. --DocM 14:23, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
        • Actually, "psychoactivity" and "behaviour manipulation" aren't that bad...--Hero!(talk)(contribs) 14:25, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
          • "Psychoactive alteration"? -Lөvөl 15:16, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
            • Man everyone has been ignoring my posts obviously. I thought from the beginning that is what he did --- but that it was Hallucination Projection. I am changing my vote to Hallucination Projection now with this information. Guy 20:54, 22 June 2007 (EDT)
              • Actually, I think we ought to ask Joe if 'hormone manipulation' would fit as a description of Guillame's power. If we get a non-clear or no answer, then we should use emotion manipulation cause it definately fits and has the most votes as of now.--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:45, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
            • Psychoactvity. It's short, and it fits. Even in the worst-case senario, that a few days after we change the name someone from the writing staff says "oh yeah the official term is emotional manipulation, lol" or whatever, then we can just change it right back. Wikis were built for frequent changes. So let's not keep a ridiculous power name in the meantime, hoping that we'll hear the real name in a interview soon. Especialy since Betty is moving forwards, and people will start asking less questions about Guillame.--Piemanmoo 20:53, 28 June 2007 (EDT)
              • What's "ridiculous" about "bliss and horror"? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:26, 28 June 2007 (EDT)
                • I don't think that the current name's ridiculous, but I guess what they mean is that it doesn't fit with the technical names of all the other powers. To me, "Bliss and Horror" is like calling Empathic Mimicry "Power Copying" and Electronic Data Transception "Mind E-Mail and Instant Messaging." I don't agree with "Emotion Manipulation" that much (I'd rather it be called "Induced Psychoactivity" than anything), but anything's fine as long as the giganormous "THIS PAGE NEEDS A NAME CHANGE" thing is gone. XD AvadaNella 03:41, 29 June 2007 (EDT)

Keep it the same argument

I agree with Admin. I absolutely despise the name but everything else is speculative (unlike molly [still bittered faced over clairvoyance]) and for right now it is the best description (right now) I do not like perception or sensation control (manipulation whatever) because he has to this point only produced ecstasy or horror. I don't even think it is pain and pleasure(might be, but just as well could not be) when I first read it I thought it was about a projection or hallucination of sort, much like drugs that cause both blissful and horrifying hallucinations. And for the guy who thinks it is hormone control, substance p, dopamine, and serotonin are the causes for pain and pleasure (which I am not agreeing that pain and pleasure are synonymous with bliss and horror). Though many other neurotransmitters exist in hormone form, dopamine is the only one out of these three that has a counterpart. I think it should remain bliss and horror until more (if any) is revealed about the causes and what the bliss and horror involve whether it is hallucinations or pain and pleasure. If it is hallucination, I would move toward hallucination projection.Guy 23:40, 12 June 2007 (EDT)

When does voting end?

There are eleven votes and over 50% more votes for Emotion Manipulation than the next vote-getter. It's no more speculative a name than many of the other power-names that have been arrived at. We've waited for all 4 series to complete, and we've given several weeks for voting and discussion.....When/Who makes the call to heed the vote? --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 06/26/2007 08:21 (EST)

  • Voting may be considered closed. The admins are discussing whether to make a change based on popular opinion. We waiting until after the upcoming interview, in case they reveal something more definitive. --Ted C 13:55, 27 June 2007 (EDT)
    • The voting is over and now so is the interview--Ryan decided not to ask again about the power again, so I think we should change the name now to Emotion Manipulation.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:39, 30 June 2007 (EDT)
      • Short of "bliss and horror", I find "psychoactivity" (or a variation thereof) to be the most accurate description of his power. Plus this fits in nicely with Joe's explaination of a good or bad "trip." (Admin 03:11, 30 June 2007 (EDT))
        • Could we just go for psychoactivity? If we went for psychoactivity right now, then people would stop complaining about "bliss and horror". And then it'd be more accurate, and thus this entire debate could end. --DocM 08:04, 30 June 2007 (EDT)
          • Ok, I'll third the motion to change to "psychoactivity". I'm not totally happy with the term, but I like it better than "bliss and horror".--MiamiVolts (talk) 09:11, 30 June 2007 (EDT)
          • I'll fourth it. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 11:24, 30 June 2007 (EDT)
            • I am not in favor of the term "psychoactivity". Besides the fact that it has not received a majority vote and sounds a bit like something that would describe an arts and crafts event at a mental ward, psychoactivity is a very broad term. True, it doesn't seem speculative, but it's not specific to Guillame's power. I could just as easily call the Haitian's, Matt's, or Molly's power "psychoactivity". -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:15, 1 July 2007 (EDT)

Keep it "bliss and horror" (part 2)

Not me. I prefer the term that Joe Kelly gave us and used more than once in the graphic novels. I don't see anything wrong with "bliss and horror", in fact I find it to be a much more accurate description of the power. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:57, 30 June 2007 (EDT)

  • Imho, the current name is incomplete. Besides not describing the cause, "bliss and horror" leaves out the seduction and shame casting. I doubt that "bliss, horror, seduction and shame" will fly since the seduction and shame is doubted, so that's why I'm rooting for "psychoactivity".--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:17, 30 June 2007 (EDT)
    • It says bliss and horror in the commic book so it should be bliss and horror. Darrenk 22:42, 30 June 2007 (EDT)
      • Good point. You know, I could argue why "induced radioactivity", "clairvoyance", or "rapid cell regeneration" are not the best terms, but ultimately they are terms given to us in canon sources, so we use them above other terms fans might think are better. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:15, 1 July 2007 (EDT)
        • Although they have been presented as definitive names for those powers whereas "bliss and horror" wasn't a definitive name, but rather a description of the power. (Joe not definitively telling us it was named "bliss and horror" is also evidence of that). If we hadn't been given a definitive name for "rapid cell regeneration" and went with canonical descriptions of her power it might be called "miracle grow" right now for instance (I'm glad it's not). That being said I think that when it comes to power naming we shouldn't necessarily impose a restriction that the article name itself originate from the canonical description, only that the article description contain the canonical description. After all, for Sylar's power we came up with intuitive aptitude despite that term having never been used in any canonical source. By the same reasoning we're prolonging renaming this article, that article probably would still be named "to understand how things work" (or however he worded it originally). Though I don't feel too strongly regarding the name of this article, I believe the term psychoactivity (or variants thereof) do accurately describe the power to the same degree as some of our other terms. While it can be said that the term may overstep the boundaries of his powers, we just clarify the known limits of the power within the article itself where we can discuss the observed results of the psychoactivity. I believe we've done this for other articles where the article name may imply a more comprehensive power than has actually been demonstrated. (Admin 22:17, 1 July 2007 (EDT))
          • Good points about the definitive names. But if "psychoactivity" is too broad, which is acceptable in some situations, why not go with the less broad and more descriptive "bliss and horror"? I guess I'm just not seeing why so many people are objected to that name. Sure it's different, but I don't see how that's a bad thing. Oh well ... -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:26, 1 July 2007 (EDT)
            • Well, for that I would go back to powers like mental manipulation and intuitive aptitude again. We do have a history of trying to concisely name the powers themselves rather than simply using a description. In both of these cases, especially mental manipulation we didn't have a lot of information on the power, yet we came up with a term for them anyway. "Bliss and horror" is a poetic description of the power, not exactly a "name" for it within the context of our other powers. So I suppose part of the issue is uniformity. If we go to lengths to try to name the other powers (mostly to have concise article names) then we should probably do the same here as well when we have a potential name that does seem to accurately describe his ability. Like with mental manipulation we ended up with a broad, somewhat vague term that had to be clarified within the article itself, but this was done so that the article could be named concisively. Now, since this is a self-imposed standard there's no reason we can't change it, but I do think we should consider it carefully and decide whether renaming it to something more aligned with the standards would be such a bad thing in this case, but personally I'd find psychoactivity to be more precise than our existing "mental manipulation" term. (Admin 22:41, 1 July 2007 (EDT))
              • See, I don't think there needs to be uniformity in us fans giving names to powers. The difference with mental manipulation & intuitive aptitude and bliss and horror is that we didn't have any descriptions given to us when we developed names. For the Haitian's power, we had 2 seemingly different powers--in fact they were listed as separate powers until Mr. Bennet's comment that all the EHs they'd come into contact with had one power--so we consolidated the name. We still have very little info about the power, and "psychoactivity" (though it's not a word and is not my favorite term, but so be it) might actually be a better name for it--but that's a discussion for another place. Sylar's power was originally being called "to fix things and know exactly how they work"--we changed that because I don't think a 9 word sentence fragment fit the bill. Again, we had no descriptions. I still think "bliss and horror" is an accurate description--and a fitting name. I'm just not ready to say we (remembering that we're fans here) have to name all the powers by the same standard. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:21, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
                • As an aside psychoactivity, although not in the dictionaries I've checked, does appear to be a legitimate medical term found in a number of documents. As I said, there's nothing stopping us from redefining the standard, but that does mean that if we come across a power in the future that's most accurately defined using a description instead of a concise term that we shouldn't discount it just because it's a description... even if it's 5 or 9 words since a description doesn't necessarily become less valid just because of its verbosity. While using a specific term doesn't have to be our standard (though when it comes to article names I do think it's more convenient), we do need some standard that we follow or else power naming becomes more arbitrary and in the future we should stick to descriptions when a specific term isn't the most specific name for that power. We just need to remain consistent with some logical standard that can be applied to all powers. (Admin 00:36, 2 July 2007 (EDT))
    • Seduction and shame (if it really was a use of the power) are merely variations on the "good trip" (bliss) and "bad trip" (horror) sides of the ability. Again, all we really know--from Joe and from the novel--is that he can make people feel either bad or good. We don't really know how. To my mind, that makes "bliss and horror" about as complete as we can be.--Hardvice (talk) 02:12, 1 July 2007 (EDT)
      • Imho, "good trip" is not necessarily "bliss" and "bad trip" is not necessarily horror.
If you look at the definitions from Merriam-Webster, "shame" is described as "a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety". "Horror" is defines as " painful and intense fear, dread, or dismay". Both can involve pain, but one is not a subset of the other. And to bring "bliss" is to bring "complete happiness", but to "seduce" women involves making them sexually want you.
Would you be okay with "Good and bad feelings" as Guillame's power? Also, we did get an answer from Joe about the power supposed to make Guillame like a "walking drug", so that's why I prefer "psychoactivity". If we MUST use the writer's words, then we can say that he has the power of "drugs".--MiamiVolts (talk) 10:37, 1 July 2007 (EDT)
  • Canon sources trump interview sources. "Good and bad feelings" is just as descriptive as "bliss and horror" in my opinion, and so I would definitely opt for the canonical name given over something we're extrapolating from a really cool note Joe gave us. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:15, 1 July 2007 (EDT)
  • This isn't a case of conflicting sources. You have to use reason. For instance, Badower's use of a digital watch in Vietnam was a mistake and not anything more. "Bliss and horror" is a limiting description, imho.--MiamiVolts (talk) 19:30, 1 July 2007 (EDT)
  • ...and I think "psychoactivity" is too broad, and all other names suggested above are too speculative. I don't find "bliss and horror" limiting at all... But I never said it's a matter of conflicting sources, just that we prefer canon sources over non-canon sources. Ultimately, we have one phrase that's been attributed to the power in any canon source: "bliss and horror". And that phrase was used more than once, to boot. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:36, 1 July 2007 (EDT)
  • Well, "shame" is used four times and "bliss and horror" is only mentioned in part 1; and there's more than just one phrase--in part 3 Guillame says he could drive men to "ecstacy or horror", that he gets the men "high" (as in drugged) and sleeps with their women. So unless we call it Guillame's "mysterious power", the name is going to be too narrow or broad. So I think we have to agree to disagree here, but I would rather see the power de-listed than remain as "bliss and horror".--MiamiVolts (talk) 21:26, 1 July 2007 (EDT)
  • I don't think it is just bliss and horror because he can induce lust, and other emotions as he suggested that he used his powers to sleep with women. He appears to induce a certain emotional feeling within a person such as the euphoria felt when he gathered his people, or the sickening feeling that he induced in the mercs. But I don't know, we should change the name, perhaps to emotion control. --Horrorman 19:48, 13 December 2007 (EST)
    • Joe Kelly gave us a great name in the graphic novels: "bliss and horror". It was used repeatedly, and it describes his power just fine. It nontraditional, but it wasn't a scientist who was talking about it, it was a Vodou spiritual leader and his son. Besides, it's a good guess that he's controlling emotion, but it's just not canonical. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:10, 13 December 2007 (EST)

Psychotropicity

Can you check if "psychotropicity" is in the medical dictionary? According to Merriam-Webster, psychoactive means "affecting the mind or behavior", and psychotropic means "acting on the mind" as in psychotropic drugs. It's a bit more narrow and familiar term, at least for me, but I'll accept either.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:52, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

  • I think the broader issue at the moment is naming convention, though I see very few instances of "psychotropicity". In many instances psychoactive and psychotropic appear to be more or less synonymous (though perhaps there's a subtle difference in how medical professionals would use each word). (Admin 00:57, 2 July 2007 (EDT))
    • But now that he's brought it up, I suddenly like the sound of "psychotropic projection". Looks nice on the page, too, and I think it's even a very accurate description of what happens. --Ted C 09:20, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
      • I don't mind appending "projection", but we if we go that way I think we should call Candice's power "illusion projection" and the Agent's power "electromagnetic projection".--MiamiVolts (talk) 14:22, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
        • I dislike "psychotropicity" because psychotropic drugs can have several effects (including altering behaviour, consciousness, and perceptions), none of which Guillaume has exhibited. As Joe Kelly stated repeatedly, he causes either good or bad feelings. He can't knock you out, cloud your vision, or the like, so "psychotropicity" or any name based on the fact that his power is similar to some psychotropic drugs is way overbroad.--Hardvice (talk) 14:30, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
          • The new information Joe Kelly provided suggested Guillame could alter any of the brain's chemicals. Regarding behavior, Guillame did use his power as an enabler to seduce women (clouding their vision?), and fainting/unconsciousness is a potential side-effect of too much horror.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:29, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
            • The new information suggests he can possibly alter more than one brain chemical (endorphins and "either an overload [of endorphins] or some other brain chemical") -- not necessarily any or all brain chemistry, and not necessarily for any effect. Joe still sounds pretty married to the good trip/bad trip dichotomy. In fact, he reiterated the idea that it's either happy or terrified.--Hardvice (talk) 15:38, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
              • Nay, he didn't limit it to use happy or terrified, he just specified what happened in those cases.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:48, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

More from Joe

Y'all know that I'm in favor of keeping it "bliss and horror" -- I still think it's a great moniker. I quasi-wrestled with not sharing this latest bit from Joe because I'm afraid it will fuel the fires for changing the name, but I of course would never withhold information to fit my personal preferences. And after his comments, I still do think "bliss and horror" should be kept.
Ryan: I guess I should also tell you that a lot of people are still really curious about Guillame's power. I mean, it is a cool power, so it's pretty understandable. People want to know exactly how it occurs and where you came up with the idea of "bliss and horror". I liked your answer about Guillame being a "walking drug" -- great metaphor.

Joe: To me, he messes with the endorphins of people around him - so when he wants people to be happy, their brains release more endorphins. When he wants them terrified, it's either an overload or some other brain chemical and they freak out. I also liked that it was related to the Haitian's power - brain system related.

Actually, I'm also going to add these two questions to the interview, since it's the closest we came to a give-and-take. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 11:06, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
  • Based on what Joe said above about the power 'messing with the endorphins-related to the Haitian's power - brain system relate' , I am changing my direction, and making a new suggestion. 'Bliss and Horror' now to me becomes simply a result of the power, not a description of the power itself. The least-speculative name should be the same as the haitian's power, Mental manipulation. Both Haitian and Guillame have the power of Mental manipulation, albeit different flavors of brain control. The Haitians variation of Mental manipulation focuses on memory-control and power-blocking, Guillame's variation of Mental manipulation focuses on endorphin release. Joe has confirmed that Guillame's power is Mental manipulation, and that the power as we have it listed, has (at the moment) two variations as it is manifested with different areas of the brain with the Haitian and Guillame. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 07/2/2007 11:55 (EST)
    • I believe I mentioned (or at least implied) in an earlier discussion that The Haitian's power is a broad term we applied to his power and isn't really the best term for it albeit perhaps the most encompassing one we can use at the moment to codify the two different examples we've seen of his power. So while, yes, it is a term of mental manipulation I think we have enough information on it to give it a slightly more precise name. (Admin 12:06, 2 July 2007 (EDT))
      • Thanks, Ryan, for sharing this new info. Based on this, I'm sticking with my current preference for "psychotropicity" or "psychotropic projection" for Guillame. It still fits best, imho, as Guillame's power can access all brain chemicals (not just endorphins). What to call the Haitian's power is another matter and I think it should be discussed on the Haitian's talk page.--MiamiVolts (talk) 14:01, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
        • Just for perspective: Joe's ideas are just that--his ideas. When he was developing the story, he said he "pitched it to the guys that he was a 'Walking drug.'" When he was in the writing process, he said, "To me, he messes with the endorphins..." It's just important to remember that this is the way Joe thinks of the power (which is very enlightening), not necessarily the way it actually works. In other words, it doesn't mean the power is actually a drug or that it's related to psychotropic drugs in any way. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:03, 2 July 2007 (EDT)
          • That's true, but I think Joe did such a good job in conveying that Guillame's fellow village people were "addicted" to him (heh) that I doubt the other writers will alter that perception of his power.--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:16, 2 July 2007 (EDT)