Talk:Cloning/Archive 3

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Glad to see Cloning make a comeback

Is anyone else glad to see cloning make a return to the world of Heroes? I always thought that this was one of the coolest powers in the graphic novels. Vampirate68 | Talk | Contribs 18:12, 24 November 2009 (EST)

  • Me. I've loved it since Evan and Adam spent two GN's knocking the stuffing out of each other. Swm 10:23, 1 December 2009 (EST)

No blood or bones

Is this really Eli's power? Did Evan's or Julien's clones not have blood, bones and not need to breathe?--PJDEP 21:26, 24 November 2009 (EST)

  • No they did as when Julien was released from the company and went into shock his clones went into a bloody frenzy. I like Eli's way of cloning as it is different from the rest. As was Julien's from Evan's. AJUTChronicles

Multiplying

Lauren Gilmore called Eli a "multiplier". Is this enough to change the name of the ability?--PJDEP 21:56, 30 November 2009 (EST)

  • Also, is this even the same ability that Julien had? Julien seemed to have much more intricate and biological cloning process, where Eli seems to spit out and take in his clones instantly.--PJDEP 21:56, 30 November 2009 (EST)
  • He hasn't been shown to take his clones back into his own body, has he?. I don't think the ability name should be changed, as "multiplier" is a colloquialism, just like "stopping time" and "teleporting" are for Hiro's ability and "healing" is for Claire's. I'm pretty sure this is the same ability as the rest- Eli just has better control over it, like Evan did. Swm 10:22, 1 December 2009 (EST)
    • If I recall correctly he had a few hundred clones working in his mine, I guess I'm just assuming that he didn't leave them out there. Also, the whole no blood and bones thing implies that they aren't actual living organisms.--PJDEP 11:17, 1 December 2009 (EST)
      • I just read the new Prodigals and it look liked when he snapped his fingers all of the other clones disappeared. I really think that him and Julien have different abilities, they can both copy themselves but in drastically different ways. Julien has his clones grow out of him and they become living breathing organisms, no evidence that he can just pull them back in. Eli can make several copies of himself appear and disappear at will and his clones vanish when they die, suggesting that they aren't actually alive.--PJDEP 12:28, 1 December 2009 (EST)
        • The ability was explicitly named in Julien's assignment tracker profile as cloning. As a general rule, Assignment trackers trump general descriptions, whether or not they are given in episodes. This happened when Elle's lightning ability was moved to electric manipulation, so I believe it should apply here too. -- Psilaq R.- \m/ -_- \m/- 18:08, 1 December 2009 (EST)
          • But isn't it possible that Eli doesn't have the same ability as Julien?--PJDEP 18:11, 1 December 2009 (EST)
            • Sometimes abilities work a bit different. Mohinder has regular enhanced strength, but Michael Fitzgerald had glowing tattoos. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:16, 1 December 2009 (EST)
              • Exactly, IA. Also don't forget that Evan's version of this ability was pretty much the same as Eli's. Both seem to have their clones just apparate from nowhere and have a collective thought process with them. -- Psilaq R.- \m/ -_- \m/- 18:39, 1 December 2009 (EST)
                • I understand both sides of the argument, although since primatech had cloners in their records, why did lauren call them multipliers. It begs the question as to whether it is a different ability. Just now I'm fine keeping it as cloning, but I do think it is something a little different. --mc_hammark 18:42, 1 December 2009 (EST)
                  • It was implied that Evan's abilities were exaggerated by Adam's retelling, so his similarities with Eli may not actually be real. Also, I always thought the the glowing tattoos were just an creative choice on the writer's part, like how many characters GN's also have their eyes glow. In any case, the differences between Julien's and Eli's abilities is more radical then glowing tattoos.--PJDEP 19:41, 1 December 2009 (EST)
  • Just because Eli's clones don't bleed, doesn't mean that it's a different ability then Evan/Julien/et al. It's ultimately a trivial difference, like the tattoos for the enhanced strength example. Other cloners could make them disappear too, so that's not new. Lauren called him a "multiplier" because it's her way of referring to the ability. It's not a formal name, no more then Life and Death was the formal name for Jeremy's power when Noah said it, "healing" is Claire's, etc etc. Swm 13:16, 2 December 2009 (EST)
    • The name life and death is currently in dispute as a canon name so that shouldn't be used as an example. And the fact that Eli's clones do not have bones or blood, don't breathe and seem to appear and disappear instantaneously is not a trivial difference, while Julien's clones were clearly actual living organisms, Eli's may be some sort of weird metaphysical entities for all we know. Just because they have similar results doesn't mean they're the same ability.--PJDEP 13:24, 2 December 2009 (EST)

Unknown Level 5 guy

Can we place him under confirm? Even though we didn't see him use his ability we seen the result. In my opinion I see this as a reason to make him confirmed for having this ability. That, and the video was title something along the lines of "Clones".--OutbackZack 11:13, 2 December 2009 (EST)

  • I always assumed that those clones were Julien Dumont's, but we can't just say that as there is no confirmation. And as with Dee H, this is a heroes evolution ability so can't be counted. Plus there could be a number of explanations for there being multiple copies of him in the same cell. Ever heard of Illusion? --mc_hammark 11:47, 2 December 2009 (EST)
    • I think that because we didn't see the clones being produced, his ability is not confirmed. We only saw the clones that were already there. But this issue is rather moot I think.--Referos 11:57, 2 December 2009 (EST)
    • To add on. If it was illusion then we shouldn't have the guy on this page, right? Confirmed or unconfirmed. Also why wouldn't a Heroes Evolution ability not count? Heroes Evolution content is deemed near canon along with webisodes and graphic novels. Ontop of that, the people who worked for the show controlled the content on the tracker map. So to say that it doesn't count would be like saying half of the stuff on here from webisodes to graphic novels don't count. I'm sticking strong with that unless we change the whole system around and lower Heroes Evolution content below near canon. There should be no problem, we have an image that we are show casing on the page --OutbackZack 11:59, 2 December 2009 (EST)

Bumped to add more discussion. --OutbackZack 06:34, 3 December 2009 (EST)

Split Article

I nominated the article to be split into two different abilities, cloning and multiplying, because I truly believe Eli has a different ability from Julien. For the sake of the argument, let's temporarily forget the other "cloners" and focus on the differences between Eli and Julien.

Eli

  • Eli's copies do not have blood or bones. They do not carry out basic metabolic functions like breathing.
  • Eli is able to retract his copies, causing them to appear and disappear instantaneously anywhere within his immediate vicinity.
  • Eli is able to copy objects.
  • Eli's copies simply vanish when he dies.
  • His copies are able to spread out over a small town. It is unknown if they are able to travel farther differences away from the "root" Eli.

Julien

  • Julien's copies appear to be exact replicas. They have fully functional biological systems (blood, bones, organs, etc.).
  • Julien's copies have been shown to travel extremely far distances away from the "root Julien", with three copies traveling to three different continents away from the root.
  • Julien's copies are copied without clothes or any other objects, only the body itself is cloned.
  • Julien's copies seem to have somewhat independent thought processes, one started a relationship. A few were capable of rebellion.
  • Julien copies himself through a process similar to cellular mitosis (or meiosis, I forget the difference). They "sprout" from his body.
  • Julien can "feel" when his copies die.
  • Once Julien creates a copy, it is permanent. They cannot be retracted and if they die, a body is left behind.

Same

  • It would appear that only the "root" can clone, clones cannot clone themselves.
  • Both can make copies of themselves (somewhat obvious...)
  • Some sort of hive mind (although more limited in Julien's case) is involved.
  • If the original, root, prime, omega, whatever, is killed, all of the clones die.


Feel free to add anything I missed.

Looking at the above points, the one basic fact that leads me to believe that these are two similar, but ultimately different abilities is that Julien produces exact replicas of himself, that are biologically living organisms, though a slow and involved process, while Eli produces copies that appear to be hollow skin shells that may very well not be actual organisms. In my mind at least, this is enough to classify them as having two separate abilities. Not only are their methods of copying different, they also end up with different results. One thing that kept Knox and Niki listed as having the same ability, despite the fact that they gained their strength through different methods, was that the end result in both cases was enhanced strength. However, this is not the case with "cloning", they may both end up with copies but these copies are very different.

Other points that should be brought up are that Lauren Gilmore called Eli a multiplier, while the assignment tracker (made by a company she worked for) called Julien's ability cloning. It is possible she may have been using the phrase colloquially however. Many people have used Evan to refute the idea of Eli and Julien having different abilities because his ability has characteristics of both characters. However, it is important to bring up the fact that it has been stated that Evan's abilities may have been exaggerated by Adam's retelling. Also (please note that I'm just bringing this up as a fact and not necessarily suggesting that Evan should be split too), in the interview with Zach Craley, he said "perhaps these powers are the same or very similar, but told from Adam's perspective it takes on a more fantastical quality". While this is not enough to suggest Evan should be split as well, it does cast enough doubt on Evan's descriptions being a reliable source.

While the above information may not be all that is required to change the article here and now, it is more then enough to warrant further debate.--PJDEP 16:21, 2 December 2009 (EST)

It can go either way for me, I'd just like to point out that Eli's clones can also be very far from the original, Tracy said they were all over Cape Town or something similar. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:40, 2 December 2009 (EST)

  • I'm actually fairly inclined to agree to a split between Julien's cloning and Eli's multiplication. The abilities seem substantially distinct. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 03:46, 3 December 2009 (EST)
    • I oppose this move, for the evidence presented for the differences seems shoddy at best. First of all, you cannot just ignore all other examples of cloners, as the power has been shown to have several attributes that some, but not all of its controllers have developed. Hence, saying "Eli can do this, Julien can't, so Eli has a different power to Julien" doesn't work. You'd have to prove that "Eli can do this, no other cloner has ever done this, so Eli does not have cloning." There's a very important and clear difference between the two. It's also entirely speculative to say that Adam was exaggerating in his retelling, because Zach said that the powers might well be the same, and Oliver Grigsby says in the same interview that there is clearly the possibility that they are the same.

Secondly, I don't think the biological properties of Eli's copies is at all a relevent difference. The fact that his clones are different from Julien's clones (which in turn behave slightly differently from Evan's clones, who can clone themselves, and different from Mag's clones who can make themselves disappear through contact) does not mean that Eli has a different power to Julien, no more then Julien has a different power to Evan or Evan to Mag. Other cloners could retract their copies (another reason why just comparing the two is not a fair test), so Eli is not different in that regard. Both Julien and Eli's clones can exist far apart from each other, as pointed out above by IE (as well as many of them being in South Africa while Eli was on the boat). Eli's ability to copy objects has been shared by other cloners (again, notably Evan), and so could some of Julien's clones (Our Lady of Blessed Acceleration Part 1 - An army of Julien clones suddenly materialises in the sewer, all dressed identically to the one they came from). The methods of copying are not really different- Eli's method is just faster and less painful, which is easily attributed to him having better control. Your analogy with Niki and Knox is inaccurate, because the end result here is also the same- they produce copies of themselves, just as Niki and Knox become stronger.

As for Lauren, I have already brought up the parralel between "multiplier" (Eli) "time traveller" (Hiro), "healing" (Claire). These are colloquial terms. An assignment tracker (a formal study of an ability) is far more reliable then one former agent's name in the heat of a fight. Noah calls Stephen Canfield's ability "Vortexes", but the official assignment tracker calls it Gravitational Manipulation. Lauren calls Eli a "multiplier", but the ability has already been named "Cloning" by the Company. As Cloning covers everything Eli can do, I see no difference between these two cases. Besides, if you did split the page, what would you call it? Multiplication/Multiplying is not a name that has been used in any medium in the Heroes world whatsoever. Lauren called him a "multipiler", but we can't use that as a name, and that's the only thing from the episode so it doesn't outrank Cloning in the hierarchy anyway, as it's just a description. Since the differences presented are either inaccurate, held by other cloners then Julien, or ultimately trivial, I think the page should not be split. Swm 06:48, 3 December 2009 (EST)

  • I would say that Eli's multiples being shells versus Julien's clones being individual beings with their own wants and desires is significant enough to open the door to them being two different powers. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 09:41, 3 December 2009 (EST)
  • I disagree. All other cloners have had "shells" for Clones to varying degrees- Evan's are all completely subservient to him, and Mag can merge with hers as she wishes. Julien's clones just have a weaker "hive mind" then the rest- he's less able to control what they do. Eli's clones may not be of blood and bone, but that by itself doesn't say anything special about the means by which they are generated. The argument that since the results are slightly different, the powers must be different, is like saying that Draph and Peter have different abilities because Draph can absorb five powers and Peter only one. It doesn't work. Swm 09:55, 3 December 2009 (EST)
    • I support the split. These powers maybe be similar, but there are enough differences for them to be called separate powers. Vampirate68 | Talk | Contribs 15:25, 3 December 2009 (EST)
  • Personally, I agree that there is enough of a difference between Eli's ability and Julien's cloning to warrant a split. The fact that he is seemingly able to cause them to materialize anywhere at will without sprouting from his body, in addition to the fact that they appear with clothing and items, as well as that they simply dissipate upon being shot, and the fact that none of them seem to exhibit any form of free will or dissent makes me think these are two very different abilities. Eli's ability is not outright cloning because Eli's men appear to not be exact biological duplications and more of a construct. I see it similar to a line between Puppet Master and Telekinesis. Both exhibit very similar functions but one power is much more involved and complicated then the other, ultimately the rules and results are different enough in my opinion to be considered different powers. Shallon 15:50, 3 December 2009 (EST)
    • The rules and regulations are more or less exactly the same as the cloning case- prime dies, they all die. I'm pretty sure that Eli can only cause his clones to come out from his body, or at least in his immediate vincinity, so it's not "anywhere at will". Julien can clone items as well. The fact the clones behave differently says nothing about them being produced in a different way, and how does the fact that Eli's better at controlling his clones, somehow make it a different power? I'm not seeing how the fact that Eli's clones don't bleed, which is really the only difference between his power and other known cloners', means it can't be cloning and must be something else. More then likely it is a device devised to keep the special effects department from having to work too hard (hiding/showing Eli's body everywhere anytime there's a clone battle). How is what Julien does more complex then what Eli does? Just because it takes him more work to produce a clone, doesn't mean it's a different power. It just means Eli is better at it. Swm 16:12, 3 December 2009 (EST)
      • A clone is a copy of someone using DNA. If dna was used then they would have all the same things as Eli, organs/would breath etc. Since Eli's multiples have none of these, they cannot be clones. --mc_hammark 16:16, 3 December 2009 (EST)
      • Nice, but under that logic Evan isn't a cloner either, because all his imperfections were also copied- his scar, for example, which isn't covered by DNA. And Evan's ability is specifically named as "Cloning". Hence, while it may be technically inaccurate, that is the name we're working with. Swm 16:21, 3 December 2009 (EST)
    • The fact that Eli's clones don't bleed or breathe is everything. This one fact proves that Eli's constructs are not biological organisms, which automatically makes it different then Julien's clothing. Also, his clones do not come from his body, in The Fifth Stage, he was shown alone at Noah's door, and when Noah turned around there were several Eli copies that were not there moments earlier. In addition to this, Evan should not be used in this argument as the writer (or artist, whatever) said in an interview that Adam may have exaggerated Evan's ability, and that he may not have the same power as Julien in the first place. There is a possibility that they are the same, but both Eli and Julien have hard evidence and should only be taken into consideration. Also, Julien's copies could not clone themselves, this was also confirmed in an interview. The army of clones must have been brought along with the other Julien clone.

Even if we were to disregard all of that, the fact that Eli does not create biological organisms with his ability, and that there is no noticeable process for his copying is enough to separate the abilities. The word "cloning" itself denotes a biological process.--PJDEP 20:53, 3 December 2009 (EST)

    • Different in results, I agree. This says nothing about the process by which they're generated. Eli's clones are different from Julien's clones. But Julien's clones are also different, in other ways, to Mag's clones, and certainly to Evan's. Do they all have different abilities, just because their copies have different properties? No. Why, then, is Eli special just because his clones have a somehow "special" difference- not being biologically human? I'm really not seeing it. The same method (cloning) can produce different results (clones), like ability replication with Draph and Peter. It's entirely speculative to say which parts of Evan's ability were exaggerated and which were not, as we do not have confirmation that any part of it was exaggerated, only that it "might" have been. I could make the exact same argument about the entire Prodigals arc because it's told from Tracy's perspective, and yet we still seem happy to use that. Just because a writer pointed out the obvious (that a story happening over 300 years ago could be distorted) doesn't mean anything special. The GN with him in it is as canonical as any story told in the past, and should be treated as such until we get confirmation the events were falsified. And even if you did ignore Evan, what about the fourth cloner we have in canon? You still have to compare all three, not just the two that work for you. You expect me to believe that there was an army of clones, all identically dressed to the one that Sabine was sleeping with, that just so happened to be hiding in the sewers at the perfect moment to catch Samir as he phased through the street? When they didn't even know he was a phaser? That's a weak argument at best. It's far more intuitive to believe Julien's power just evolved since the interview and his clones became able to clone themselves. I shot down the biological definition with Evan's scar, as (unless you want to speculate and say that Adam was exaggerating on facial features as well as everything else) his clones aren't biological duplicates either. Now, if you want to move both Evan and Eli to Multiplication/Replication/whatever, and leave Mag and Julien on Cloning, that's one thing. But should another cloner ever appear in the world of Heroes, how would you decide where to put them, since Evan's clones clearly did bleed?

I still do not accept that because Eli's clones are slightly different in form, that his power is anything more then a highly controlled form of cloning. Everything he can do can be accounted for by it, including not having to make the clones jump out of his physical body (Evan's clones could clone themselves, hence not all the clones came from his body, either). As I said at the top, in order to show that Eli's power is distinct from cloning, it must be shown to do something cloning cannot do. He has not shown such an ability, and until he does he should remain on the same page. Swm 03:54, 4 December 2009 (EST)

  • That's the thing Swmystery, clones are biological duplicates of the creator. That's how cloning works. If it's not biologically alive, then it can't be a clone. Although I'm interested as to why Ryan hasn't had his input here yet; I'll ask him. --mc_hammark 04:58, 4 December 2009 (EST)
    • They have their own mind so I don't really care about "biologically alive" actually, they consider themselves as their own family... Moreover, if Knox's power, Mohinder's, and Draph/Peter are the same, there is just no way to split this article since it's the same problem : Different way to use a core ability. We do it for all the powers or not, so since it has been decided not to do it for the others, it's not logical to split it now.--Kleith 07:02, 4 December 2009 (EST)

Eli's clones are not "slightly different" in anything.

  • They do not breathe, Julien's do. (covered in "biological functions")
  • They do not come out of Eli's body, Julien's do.
  • They do not have biological functions, Julien's do.
  • They duplicate clothes and items held, Julien's don't.
  • They can't travel far from the Prime, Julien's do.
  • They vanish when destroyed, Julien's don't.
  • They share a hive mind, Julien's don't.

That's seven MAJOR differences in their powers. The ONLY things they have in common is that they (through different processes) make copies of themselves, and if the Prime dies, they all die. That's like saying that because TK and PM both control physical motion and tend to use a flick of the wrist, that they are the same. Julien and Eli have distinct powers. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 09:46, 4 December 2009 (EST)

  • Again, just comparing Julien and Eli is not a good way to argue. Breathing falls under the lack of biological functions, as is the vanishing. They CAN travel far from the the prime, as seen when they ran out all over Cape Town. Other Cloners share a hive mind (Evan), it's just Julien's that is weaker. Julien may be able to clone items or not (see my GN example) but other cloners could anyway (Evan certainly could). So if anything, Julien has the different ability, not Eli. The only real fact that marks Eli out as different is that his clones are not fully human entities. That's one, maybe two major differences if you count the not coming directly from the body. It's certainly not seven, and those two just mean this is just a different result of the power, perhaps a more controlled aspect. Being able to produce clones outside your body is a natural development of being able to produce clones from your body. These do not, by themselves, mean the power is different. I remain against the split. Swm 10:21, 4 December 2009 (EST)
    • Also, MC, you're still splitting hairs about words. "Clone" is identical to "copy" in the Heroes world, because if they had to be biologically identical Evan's clones would be unscarred (or not clones), but aren't, and have been clearly said to be. Swm 10:21, 4 December 2009 (EST)
      • Here. I'll even give you a list of the similarities between Eli and all other cloners:
  • They all produce copies that appear identical to themselves.
  • Eli's clones can exist far away from him. So could Julien's, Evan's, and Mag's.
  • All objects Eli copies are cloned. Evan could control what objects his clones copied.
  • Eli's clones cannot clone themselves. Julien's could not either (according to you guys). Mag is unknown, but Evan could.
  • Should the "prime" die, both Eli's clones and Julien's die. It is hinted that Evan is exactly the same.
  • All cloner's clones have slightly different properties. Eli's don't bleed. Evan's can clone themselves. Mag's can cause themselves to vanish by contact with the root. Julien's are capable of rebellion.
  • All cloners appear to share a hive mind. Evan's was massively developed, as is Eli's and possibly Mag's. Julien's is less so.
  • Eli can retract his clones. Mag can do the same.
    • There. Eight entirely distinct points as to why Eli's power behaves in the exact same way as a known example of Cloning. There are only two ways in which he differs from the rest- his clones are not biological (however, different results can come from the same power), and they can appear from outside his body (a natural evolution of said power). My case rests. Swm 10:30, 4 December 2009 (EST)
      • Indeed, in both cases, the power remains creating physical duplicates of a prime one. The rest is just variations of that power. It's like Jeremy's power, or Knox's power... All "Heroes" characters tend to access those abilities in different ways, it's the same here. And I think all the points SWM made are self explanatory. --Kleith 11:31, 4 December 2009 (EST)
        • Exactly. Or, rather, it's like the difference between Flint and Meredith's power. They have the same ability- nobody doubts that. But the results of Meredith's power (red flames) are chemically different to Flint's power (blue flames)- hence why Flint's are hotter, and a different colour. Similarly with Eli and any other cloner- the results of his power (he produces clones that don't bleed) are biologically different to that of say, Evan's or Julien's (clones that do bleed), but it's still the same power. Swm 11:41, 4 December 2009 (EST)
  • I'm afraid you're making some assumptions and generalizations that don't belong.
    • Eli's multiples were able to operate around Cape Town, but when he escaped by boat, his multiples simply froze and could no longer function.
    • Eli's clones cannot clone themselves, correct. Neither can Julien's. But that is a restriction of their powers. That's like saying that because Tracy can't control the earth, and Meredith couldn't control the earth, that their powers must be the same.
  • The evidence AGAINST Eli and Julien having the same power is far stronger than the evidence in SUPPORT of it. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:31, 4 December 2009 (EST)
    • No, it's really not. Your first point is wrong- the clone displayed in the panel before Eli is seen in the speedboat was frozen by Tracy's ability. There's no evidence that Eli's clones suddenly couldn't function. Your second argument misses the point, because another cloner could do that- Evan. And just as Julien still has Cloning despite not being able to do it, so too does Eli. It's eight points to two, arguably three. The evidence favours keeping them the same. Swm 12:36, 4 December 2009 (EST)
      • And Tracy/ Meredith don't do the same things with their abilities so it's out of the subject. Julien and Eli are creating physical copies of themselves... It's only the "how" that changes, not the effect. So your example is really wrong. As is your first point, since Tracy chased Eli over a LONG distance, and all the clones were doing fine while being in opposite directions (until she killed them).--Kleith 12:47, 4 December 2009 (EST)
      • Please observe the bottom two panels of this page. This Eli was not frozen, but simply stopped functioning. Additionally, it would seem some of Evan's ability may have been an exaggeration by Adam (confirmed by Zach Craley). In addition, the "what" is exactly as important as the "how", and the "what" is VERY different. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:51, 4 December 2009 (EST)
        • He's noticable bluer in the right hand panel then the left. Tracy froze him in between, hence why the caption reads "And then... nothing". His skin colour dictates that it's probably freezing- he's that colour at the bottom of the left panel, and then throughout in the right. You can even see the crack in his face that's not on the left if you zoom in. Besides, even if he did stop, how do you know it's because Eli was out of range? Unless he made hundreds of clones as soon as he got back to Cape Town, his mine appears to have been running fine while he was on the boat. Or do you think he has to recreate all his workers every time he goes away? Also, saying "well, that part's exaggerated, so it's not true" in regard to Evan's power is a horrifically bad argument. We know that parts of Evan's story may have been exaggerated, but not which parts and how much. Hence, it's no evidence against Eli. Swm 12:57, 4 December 2009 (EST)
        • Well excuse me but the "how" of Knox's power has NOTHING to do with Mohinder's and Niki's, but yet he's still considered as having the same power. It's like saying West doesn't fly as fast as Nathan so it's not the same power... About the novel, well I don't agree, she says he disappeared ! Eli can make them disappear anytime he wants, they can also probably do it themselves and get back "inside" the prime. Eli was just trying to make her lose her time and giving her false trajectories, locations to follow. Moreover, you really think he would just "stop to function" the second she finds him ? That would be SUCH a coincidence... He disappeared right when she grabbed him. I don't buy it. About Evan, it seems likely it's only the number of the clones created that was exaggerated for the story... --Kleith 13:06, 4 December 2009 (EST)
          • RGS has said before, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck, right, but if it just lays eggs like a duck (ie the outcome is mulitple of him) but his walk (just appearing from nowhere) and quack (not biologicaly living) are different, then it is speculative to say it is a duck; correct? But before we edit any more, I suggest we wait until Ryan has his input. --mc_hammark 14:35, 4 December 2009 (EST)
            • I'm not sure that's exactly what I said. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:51, 4 December 2009 (EST)
            • I concur. Let Ryan use his ability of obscure-insider-information to find out what the deal is on this one. Swm 14:39, 4 December 2009 (EST)
  • He's noticeably bluer because, as Tracy notes, he slowly disappears (while underwater), likely as a result of being too far from the Prime. She even notes that this one stopped breathing altogether. In regard to Evan, I'm not saying "because it's exaggerated, it's not true". I'm saying "because it may be exaggerated, we cannot assume every detail is true." What this means is that the details of Evan's power (which are fuzzy at best) should in no way affect how we discuss Eli's power. As far as Knox goes, his power is still enhanced strength. The only (read: ONLY) difference between him and Niki is that his power requires fear. As I showed above, there are six distinct (and fairly sizeable) differences between Eli's and Julien's powers. Coincidences happen. You cannot assume everything everyone does is intricately planned out; occasionally accidents happen. This said, I'm fine with waiting until we hear back from Ryan's folks on the matter. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 14:55, 4 December 2009 (EST)
    • Stopped breathing altogether? I thought Eli's clones didn't breathe period, on account of not having lungs? We might not be able to assume every detail of Evan's ability is as presented, but how does one move from that to saying that the specific part where his clones can clone themselves cannot be used? It doesn't work, because we don't know what part of the story is false, if any. Your six differences aren't confirmed- it's not clear whether Julien could clone objects (read above, regarding a specific GN), and I'm not buying the "he turns blue because he's disappearing" argument, especially because almost all Tracy's victims of freezing go blue as well. Julien's clones did have a kind of hive mind, just weaker then that of Evan's/Eli's. See this quote from the Cloning page- "However, the offshoots also share a hive-like collective mind, in which the root Dumont appears to play a centric role." Hence, he and Eli are not distinct in that regard.

Evan's ability is also entirely relevent to this discussion- we're asking if Eli is a cloner. Evan is a cloner. Hence, what Evan could do is relevent to what Eli can do. Yes, Knox's power requires fear, but this is the point- it's a different method of getting the same result, and it's still the same power. Eli is exactly the same. Swm 15:07, 4 December 2009 (EST)

          • Whoa guys, I thought we agreed, no more discussion so RGS can catch up. We did agree. Please remember that. --mc_hammark 15:10, 4 December 2009 (EST)
            • I apologise. Let's leave it for now, then. Swm 15:11, 4 December 2009 (EST)
              • Although I appreciate the consideration, please don't stop this excellent discussion just for me. You should feel free to discuss any topic, and not let my slowness (new baby--sorry!) thwart any progress here. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:51, 4 December 2009 (EST)

My thoughts

I'm starting a new topic here simply because the last one is quite large, and I want to take this from a slightly different angle. The big question here is whether Eli and Julian (and Evan) have the same power. I'm inclined to say that they do, though there are some glaring differences among them. I won't go into details on the differences because those have already been very well documented above. We already have confirmation that Evan and Julian have the same power--Ollie Grigsby and Zach Craley confirmed that here--just with marked differences. (By the way, that's not a new concept--several other people who share abilities manifest them in slightly different ways, or sometimes very drastically different ways. Again, that's been documented above, so I don't think I need to go into detail.) Evan and Julian's power is officially called "cloning" in the Assignment Tracker. However, calling it "replicating" or "multiplying" or "duplicating" is not wrong. In fact, several sources have used these terms (and their derivatives) interchangeably. So really, it comes down to whether or not Eli has the same power as Julian and Evan. I don't know the answer to that. My gut says that they do all have the same power (with obvious differences), mostly because they can all do the same basic thing--replicate themselves. Add to that the fact that the power has already been manifested very differently in two different characters, I don't think it's a huge jump in logic to say that a third person has a third "variation" of the same ability. However, because I don't know for sure, I posed the question to Foz McDermott and Howie Kaplan, who both wrote the Eli-centric Prodigals. Hopefully they both respond--it'd be cool to get the perspective of a veteran like Foz as well as a relative newbie like Howie. But we'll see what we get. Hope that helps... :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:51, 4 December 2009 (EST)

  • I heard back from Howie. He said "that Eli's power is as similar to Evan and Julian's as West's is to Nathan or Adam Monroe is to Claire. Similar, but with a few differences. Daphne/Edgar have basically the same power, but the ways it manifests are individualized. Same deal with replicators." -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 02:55, 5 December 2009 (EST)
  • Thank you so much for getting an answer for us. So, this means that for now, as far as the page is concerned, it is not split, right? Because in all those examples (Flight, RCR) the powers are kept in one central page. So until we hear it otherwise from a source higher up on the chart, we should follow that precedent for "Cloning", and document the differences on the page for the shared ability? I just wanted to make sure that this was cleared up and I was not misinterpreting things. Thank you for your time. Shallon 10:09, 5 December 2009 (EST)
    • Correct. Eli stays on the same page as the other cloners, but we document the specifics of his ability under his own section. Thank you very much for the help Ryan. Swm 11:11, 5 December 2009 (EST)
      • Ok, it's fine by me now it has been confirmed to be the same ability, but the question now is; does Lauren's saying of multiplier more cannon than the assignment tracker's cloning? --mc_hammark 13:49, 5 December 2009 (EST)
        • I doubt it. It came up in the discussion above, and sounded much the same as "time traveller" (Hiro) "healing" (Claire) and "Vortexs" (Stephen Canfield). It's a colloquialism, not a formal name. Swm 14:01, 5 December 2009 (EST)
          • Right. I'm not sure when it was decided, but we definitely have had a discussion about the Assignment Tracker files, and we decided that even though they have slightly less canonicity than the episodes, they are much more explicit. In other words, explicitness in canon and near-canon sources takes precedence over the source itself. So it's not wrong to refer to Eli's ability as "multiplying" (or "replication" or "duplication"), but since we can only choose one name for the page, we'll go with the one that was given to us the most explicitly, which is "cloning". -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:24, 5 December 2009 (EST)
  • While I can't say that I'm happy, I'm not going to argue against a writer's statement. Either way, thank you for putting an end to this debate.--PJDEP 16:51, 5 December 2009 (EST)
    • No problem. Thank Howie, not me. But I know how you feel--there have been plenty of times where I've gotten a response from a writer that really goes against my personal opinion, but it's important to take a mature approach to the situation (as you are doing, PJDEP) and accept that our personal opinions are not always in the right. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:24, 5 December 2009 (EST)

Archive

As far as I understand, shouldn't archives have twenty topics instead of ten? Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:36, 5 December 2009 (EST)

  • Sorry, the page was becoming cluttered and I thought things were archived based on time. If you combine the two archive pages I think it ends up around 20 however.--PJDEP 17:38, 5 December 2009 (EST)
    • They do add up twenty topics. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:55, 5 December 2009 (EST)
      • Should they be combined then?--PJDEP 18:00, 5 December 2009 (EST)
        • Archives can have as many or as little topics as the creator bothers to include. It's just that the maximum is 20 subheadings in order for Template:ArchiveLinks to work. --Radicell 23:07, 5 December 2009 (EST)
          • Right. Pages should be archived based on total length, not number of topics. Special:longtalkpages is a good guide. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:36, 6 December 2009 (EST)
            • So the archiving doesn't need to be fixed then?--PJDEP 00:38, 6 December 2009 (EST)

Breathing

Although in the newest graphic novel eli's clones can be seen breathing, via the steam. However, they have said before that they do not breathe. I think what should be noted is that they obviously have lungs so that they have a breath to talk (which would produce the steam), but they do not require to breathe to stay alive. Anyone agree or have other ideas? --mc_hammark 15:22, 15 December 2009 (EST)

  • I made a note at the bottom of the article that it wasn't clear, as opposed to putting it in Eli's section. Is that okay?--PJDEP 16:01, 15 December 2009 (EST)
    • Mabye they dont breath, they just talk. all of the clones who are creating steam are talking.-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 16:03, 15 December 2009 (EST)
      • You need to breathe in order to speak, otherwise there's no air making the vocal chords vibrate. Maybe what Tracy meant is that they don't require breathing to survive. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:12, 15 December 2009 (EST)
        • In addition, Prodigals Part 1 mentions one that one of Eli's clones "stopped breathing altogether." Hence, they seem able to breathe, even if they don't need to. Swm 10:48, 16 December 2009 (EST)