Talk:Explosion future

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Careful!

There are at least 2 dark futures, the one at the beginning of String Theory where Future Hiro didn't go back at all, and the one shown in the episode, where Future Hiro went back but Present Hiro didn't stop the explosion (presuming he does so). They are arguably different enough to matter. In one, Sylar was the bomb, in the other, it was Peter. In one, Claire died in 2007 2006 (edit by Alexwill 10:26, 1 May 2007 (EDT)), in the other, Claire died in 2011. Gregorus 09:40, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

  • We might need to split it to clarify, then. --Ted C 09:48, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
  • I think a good method would be refering to the timeline before Hiro travels back to warn Peter as Dark Future A or 1, and after as Dark Future B or 2, and any subsequent Dark Futures named as such.... Alexwill 10:26, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
    • Numbering is too complex. Listing it sequentially and as a different future is enough. I like how it is. It gets too confusing when you start calling something A and B or 1 and 2. --Bob 10:28, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
      • So far, there's only one. In both String Theory and Five Years Gone, Sylar used Candace's power to disguise Peter as Sylar. At least, that's what I assume. Heroe!(talk) 17:08, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
        • Correct, you're assuming. If it were one timeline, there's also the causality paradox. Why would FHiro travel back? This implies that Peter always had regeneration, Sylar stole illusion, and it's a repeating loop. It's paradoxial, which is why it's not safe to assume in time travel situations.--Bob 18:02, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
          • There are absolutely two. At the beginning of String Theory, Claire had died in 2006. By the end of the comic, Claire was alive, while Future Hiro still believed her dead because he had his memories from the previous timeline. Changes did take place. Gregorus 23:54, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
Dark Future Timelines.GIF
  • Due to Hiro's many jumps through time you could list a whole bunch of different timelines - I made the following chart (Image:Dark Future Timelines.GIF) to help me as much as anyone as my head was beginning to hurt with the whole "Save the cheerleader.." message/Five Years Gone/How To Stop An Exploding Man timelines. Hopefully this makes sense, it leaves out a lot of the irrelevant stuff and focuses on the main people and events that change the timelines (realise this is a bit late, but only just finished the first season!). This has solidified my interpretation of the events:

Although saving Claire from Sylar and removing his chance to take her ability is vitally important, just doing that isn't enough to stop any version of the future where the specials aren't viewed as terrorists - it simply stops the ("original") future where Sylar explodes.

In the Five Years Gone "dark future" Claire is saved and meets Nathan, she learns of his knowledge of Peter's exploding and although she tries to get him to stop it, his mother's influence is too great and he lets it happen.

The ONLY thing that is different because of "our" Hiro's trip to the future in "Five Years Gone" is his knowledge of Nathan's complicity in the explosion which leads to the "villain" confrontation (although not seen S2 yet, so something there may contradict this) in "Landslide" - this is the last straw for Nathan's conscience and so he goes to save New York.

(The only thing that trips up this interpretation is the fact that Peter has the scar. This means he never met Claire, which makes no sense anyway as we see that Claire did not die. I'm willing to believe this was a trip up by the writers as they had so many balls in the air that they just missed this one, although supposedly there is a reason for it.) --Co fragment 05:00, 13 December 2007 (EST)

The Message

I don't want to get into an editing conflict over whether to include Hiro's actions in String Theory here. My personal opinion, however, is that events that actually occur in the GN should be on the GN's page, and events that occur "around" String Theory and Five Years Gone should be on this page. --Ted C 14:33, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

  • Then why have this article? The point of the article is to illustrate what lead to the dark future. Since there are multiple futures, it needs to be explained as to how that occurred. It's for the purpose of clarity to the reader, not an attempt to somewhat alter formatting.--Bob 18:04, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
    • As noted below, my intent was to "fill the gaps" around the episodes and graphic novels. However, I've been convinced that repeating some of the information here is not a bad thing. --Ted C 18:06, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

Walls, Part 1

Shouldn't the events of the Walls graphic novel be included in this article, somehow? Afterall, it does provide some information on the history of the "Dark Future". Joser Kyind 16:06, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

  • I would include events leading up to it, but leave the actual events described in the GN's own page. --Ted C 16:53, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
    • I'm not sure I understand your insistance on keeping the events of the GN's and episodes out of this article. Especially since the Walls comic is an important piece of the history behind Five Years Gone. It's not like anyone is calling for an in depth description of everything that happens in it, just a couple of main bullet points, like this:
      • I just think it's redundant. Those events are discussed on their own pages; I created this one to fill in the gaps. I'm not seriously objecting, anymore; I just have a preference. --Ted C 17:16, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
        • While I can understand that logic, and even agree with it to a point, I feel that the nature of a wiki leads to the necessity of some redundancy. For example, the character history sections of the character pages are "redundant" in the fact that the events described in them are included in the corresponding episode and GN pages, but I don't think anyone would argue that those sections should be removed. As for this particular page, I feel that, if it is intended to describe the Dark Future that Hiro comes from, some mention should be made of the major events that are actually shown in the articles and GN's. Joser Kyind 17:49, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
          • OK, I'm sold. --Ted C 17:58, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

The Name

I recall Future Hiro using the exact phrase "Dark Future" early in Five Years Gone. Is that just my imagination? I ask, because I see no reason to go around referring to "one possible future" in other articles. Eventually, this future will presumably become impossible. If "Dark Future" is a term established in the show, I see no reason not to use it in the Wiki as a specific reference to the dystopian future of Five Years Gone. --Ted C 16:58, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

  • It's still a possible future. Hiro has the ability to change the future, which is what he plans on doing. So the "dark future", whichever one it is, is still just a possibility. Implying it as a proper noun means that it exists, which is not the case. No future is set in stone, unless predestination is established, which the writers have stated against.--Bob 17:54, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
    • Before long, though, the events we've seen will become a part of Hiro's past. At that point, the paradox problem will make it much more difficult to fix. Further, if there are other possibilities for the future, then being able to refer to this timeline by a specific name may be useful as a way for us to distinguish timelines. --Ted C 18:01, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
  • Is "Dark Future" used to refer solely to the timeline period shown in Five Years Gone where Hiro has gone back to warn Peter, so that Claire doesn't die at Homecoming in 2006, but Sylar still survives and Peter still explodes. Or, does it also refer to the original timeline that Future Hiro came from, which existed in his worldline, where Claire was killed by Sylar? If the former, then there would need to be another name or indicator to talk about the original timelime where Future Hiro from Hiros came from, so the summary provided in the graphic novel String Theory of what happened before Hiro left to deliver The Message. --Alexwill 22:58, 1 May 2007 (EDT)
    • The "Dark Future" applies to any timeline in which the Explosion occurs, resulting in the crackdown on evolved humans. --Ted C 09:27, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

Is the term actually "Dark Future," or did Hiro just refer to it as a "dark future"?--Cylon 23:40, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

  • If someone's got the exact phrase he used to describe his history, it would make a good Memorable Quote for this page. --Ted C 10:33, 3 May 2007 (EDT)


Who Exploded?

In the unaltered future timeline, there is reason to believe that it was infact Sylar who exploded. Now it could be that Hiro was wrong about this and it was infact Peter who was the original bomb. --ASEO 15:11, 4 May 2007 (EDT) In the altered timeline Peter was the one who exploded, though Sylar was blamed.

  • Future Hiro believed that Sylar was the cause of the explosion, but it's unclear whether he actually witnessed Sylar exploding or just assumed he was the cause because of Nathan's cover up. It's possible that Peter was always the cause of the explosion, before any tampering with the timeline. --Ted C 15:15, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
    • The beauty of hind-sight is it only becomes clearer after everything happens. I think we'll figure it out later. But my opinion on the matter is that he knows the difference between Sylar and Peter since the two work together / are friends a year later. Stabbing generally requires you to be up close. So unless there's that great tool of illusion, he thinks it was Sylar.--Bob 15:18, 4 May 2007 (EDT)
      • Oh, I don't doubt that Hiro stabbed Sylar in one timeline; we just don't know if he actually saw Sylar explode. It's probable, but not certain. --Ted C 15:25, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

I'm not liking that last section.

"Did not or probably would not occur if Future Hiro..."

There is NO way to say those events would have happened had he not gone back.--Riddler 20:24, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

  • Agree. It sounds a bit too speculative and should probably be changed. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:39, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
    • In fact, the entire article needs to be cleaned up. There's a lot of little theories masquerading as legitimate information. The format could also use a serious dose of standardization. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:40, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
      • I mean, especially the "Peter explodes instead of Sylar." Who says Sylar ever exploded in the first place? Ever since the beginning we knew it was him, and in the future, Hiro and Niki sure thought it, but Peter came right out and said it, thus Sylar was never truely expected to go boom. :O--Riddler 20:42, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
  • I'll get right on that, Nightclub. :P--Riddler 20:43, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
    • Actually this is kind of tough. I'm not sure what's fact and fiction overall. Ando and Micah dying in the explosion, is that set in stone? I mean, Niki definatley thinks it was the explosion that killed Micah, but there is no hard proof, also, I need a clearer shot of the Ando premonition... amongst others. Maybe someone can slap a warning on this page? --Riddler 20:54, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

About halfway done?

Is this what you mean by standardizing? I began to re-structure the page like the other event pages. I kept alot of the info in there, while cutting out things that were a bit unnecessary and adding in things that are only important to the plot development (like peter showing his pyrokinesis and absorbing the new powers)

I'm not done yet, and if you like my progress I'll finish the rest of the page a.s.a.p. :D--Riddler 21:53, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

Also, I wrote in "Hiro Narrorates" so that we could explain the past events without having to list them.--Riddler 22:02, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

  • Yeah, it's gettin' there. A few things in no particular order. The eps/GNs should be listed in order of release. Power Names Don't Get Capitalized. I don't mind the bulleted list under Five Years Gone, but the GN summaries are not bulleted for some reason. I don't really care which way they are (bullets are not standard, but they kind of work for this page), but whatever way it is done should be consistent throughout the page--all or nothing. Great job taking out a lot of the speculation: words like "presumably" and "apparently" are not bad words, but they invite trouble. Looks like a good clean so far. BTW, "Hiro narrates." — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:07, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
    • Whoops on the mispell. Another reason I put in the "Hiro Narrates" is the fact that what he says may not necessarily be fact, but what he thinks is a fact. Remember, he thought Sylar was the bomb when it was Peter. --Riddler 22:09, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
      • Right, good call. Another way to take care of that is to simply say "according to Hiro..." — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:14, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
        • Hehe... that comes from my way of writing in my English class. Everytime we write an essay, I warp words around to make it sound better in my opinion. "Hiro narrates" sounds more epic than "according to Hiro.", AND uses less characters :D >_>--Riddler 22:16, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
  • What I'll do is, I'll return the bullets, but leave in a small intro to the scene. I hadn't gotten to FYG yet, but now that I think of it, bullets WILL be alot easier to work with for this one. --Riddler 22:19, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
    • How is that? I personally prefer the summaries but I suppose this works. Still haven't touched FYG, and I need a shot of the Andowned Drawing (not just the one where he says I'm dead, I need the whole shot if possible) so I can figure out if it's the bomb or just a Sylar encounter.--Riddler 22:25, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
      • At first glance it looks pretty good. I haven't had a chance to go through it in depth yet. Nicely done. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:29, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

As the editor who originally named this page "Dark Future"... yeah, it's now rather non-specific. Seems we're going to get a new dark future every season, at this rate. Maybe "Dark Future" could be turned into a disambiguation page with links to more specific pages for the "Explosion future", "Virus future", and "Serum future". --Ted C 07:25, 29 September 2008 (EDT)

  • Yeah, back in the day when there was only one possible future, it really was a good term to describe it. There are lots of pages that link to "Dark Future", so I don't know if it would be a good idea to turn Dark Future into a disambig page. Especially since it's a fan-coined term, I don't think we've got a lot of people coming here and searching for "Dark Future". If they do, they'll get this page (probably renamed) with links to the other futures in the See Also section (which should probably be updated) and in navbar at the bottom. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 07:43, 29 September 2008 (EDT)

Gotta be renamed

The "dark future" we see in The Line is not THIS dark future. THIS dark future includes the whole NY was ruined, and rebuilding was halfway done in 5 years' time. In THAT dark future, the time square is neat and does not appeared to be bombed (note that Peter has only gone 1 year into the future, so it cannot be rebuilt.) So, are we going to make a new dark future? Chrisyudbsname.JPGChrisyudbstalk.JPG 11:01, 30 October 2007 (EDT)

  • Agreed. The dark future shown in the first season is a very different future than the one shown in the second one. Some sort of distinction should be made between the two. I'm not sure what names would be best ("explosion future" and "virus future"?). Perhaps there could then be a subsection on the "future" disambiguation page, like there is for future characters. Which adds another logistical headache; if the recently shown future is revisited, we could wind up with more versions of characters from it than just Angela Petrelli. Perhaps any characters in both futures can just have subsections in their own articles. I'm going to stop before rambling off too much.N W 11:45, 6 November 2007 (EST)
    • I third this. Volume Two: Generations' "Dark Future" is absolutely unique from Volume One: Genesis' and, as a result, does warrant its own entry, for the purpose of distinction. "Explosion Future" and "Virus Future" sound good, or it could be "Epidemic Future" instead, to follow a pattern of focusing on the event rather than the means. Furthermore, if as N W said, more familiar characters are encountered in the Epidemic Future -- that is, future versions of them different from the future versions of them in the Explosion Future -- I would support a whole new set of entries for them in the same manner. "Sylar (Explosion Future)" and "Sylar (Epidemic Future)", for example. Otherwise, we could maintain it as only one "future entry" per character, as "Sylar (Future)", but make a clear distinction between the futures in each case within the content of the entries.--Grant Dempsey 20:59, 7 November 2007 (EST)
      • We have outbreak, which covers that future.--  Lost Soul   talk  contribs  08:04, 13 December 2007 (EST)
        • Although the two separate possible futures are now on separate articles, I think that this one needs to be renamed... there are two "Dark Futures" now, so using the name "Dark Future" to refer to this one is too vague. Bohrok Awakener 12:47, 13 December 2007 (EST)
        • To be a little more specific; how about "explosion future" and "outbreak future?" -- LightSpectra 21:34, 9 January 2008 (EST)
  • Needs to be renamed soon I think, incase there is a new future this next season, i got a feeling all the futures we see are going ot be dark.--Skywalkerrbf 16:54, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
    • I don't necessarily think so. We dealt with this when the outbreak came about by making a new one. I think the title is a bit misleading, but it deals with a very specific alternate future. Granted, the name could be better, but I don't think it's necessary.--Bob (talk) 17:20, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
      • Hmm but if someone is looking for a dark future next season they will get this one, I think it could be called 'explosion future' as that is the first difference that happens.--Skywalkerrbf 02:55, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
  • It means a lot of edits to update the wiki, but "Explosion Future" is definitely a better coinage. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 04:03, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
    • It is. The explosion is what characterizes this future and as Skywalker said, all the futures we see are going to be dark.--Citizen 21:18, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

How Ando dies

From Five Years Gone:
FUTURE PETER: He didn't tell you.
ANDO: What?
FUTURE PETER: You're ... dead.
ANDO: How?
FUTURE PETER: In New York. The bomb.
-- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 13:10, 13 September 2008 (EDT)

  • I think the change was referring to this, but again, this takes place in the present, and Hiro avoids it by saving Ando.--Bob (talk) 13:22, 13 September 2008 (EDT)

So...where's Don't Look Back?

Shouldn't Don't Look Back be in here, seeing as Hiro visited the original explosion future in that episode?--Citizen 17:01, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

  • Agreed.--Matchu 17:03, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Not necessarily. This article is about what could have happened after the explosion. Don't Look Back only shows us the moment when the explosion occurs.--Referos 17:51, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

Constructing a Timeline

Since the explosion was a Company plan it is safe to assume they exist, which means Hiro did travel back in time and meet Kensei, so after stabbing Sylar he was pushed away with TK and teleported to 1600's just like normal. He probably assumed when he returned 4 months later that Sylar exploded because that's what everyone else said. We know Peter met Future Hiro on the train as Mohinder remembers it and there is an Issac painting of it in Hiro's string web, and we know that Peter saved Claire. We also know Peter met Ted and absorbed his power and we know that Bennet and Parkman are familiar with each other so we can assume that the circumstances leading to them meeting in New York were all the same. We know Sylar killed Issac which in the main timeline is how he found Ted to take his power, so we can assume this happened also. However in this timeline Sylar killed Ando when he attacked him in the loft, Hiro arrived too late/not at all? Nathan obviously doesn't fly Peter away, so he must have left the city with Angela as they planned. Linderman was prepared to leave the city and since in 5 years "the Linderman Act" is around, I think it's safe to assume he is alive and influential in Washington with Nathan.(I don't think they would name major bills after a dead vegas mobster). Mohinder and Molly probably boarded the chopper Thompson had for them and left the city as we know they both survived. So Bennet and Parkman would arrive but not find any Walker System, what would they do then? leave the city to avoid the bomb? sounds logical and Bennet was aware of the bomb. So Nikki and DL arrive in Linderman's office, maybe Jessica does decide to take the money, we know DL can fight her with phasing, maybe they start fighting which is how Linderman escapes (probably with the money). Also we know DL went to Bennet to hide in the future and Nikki didn't, so support for a split happening at some time. This may also be why they couldn't save Micha and he died in the building. We can assume Candice had the same orders regarding Sylar and managed to drag him away before the expolsion but she wouldn't have to flee to Mexico to hide as any witnesses would be dead in the explosion. We know that at a later date Hiro sent Canidce to Bennet who turned her over to Nathan/Sylar who took her ability then, perhaps she escaped from the Company with Molly who Hiro also sent to Bennet. We can safely assume that Hana had no complications with her space walk and managed to disable the satelite and return to Earth as she is alive in 5 years time. Since Peter was not locked away and would not have met and released Adam, Kaito and Victoria are both still alive and the Shanti Virus should still be locked in the vault at Primatech Paper. Also since Nathan could fly the formula must exist and would still be kept in Japan and Berlin having been torn in half by a different Hiro fro a different futre.

Some unanswered problems are : How did Nikki and DL survive the exposion yet Micha didn't?. In 5 years Bennett is using Primatech Paper as a smuggling operation is it still a Compnay building?. Was Primatech Research destroyed in the explosion? the Deveaux Bulding and Issac's Loft seem to be relatively undamaged. How far did Maya and Alejandro get without Sylar's help?. Is Arthur still in his bedridden state at Pinehearst?. Did Nathan meet Tracy Strauss in Washington?

Sorry for the long post but we are dealing with time travel and possible future's here. --D Toccs 17:55, 17 December 2008 (EST)