Talk:Empathic mimicry/Archive 3

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Peter should have empathic mimicry back

Why doesn't it say this, all it says is flight when we know that the formula that was created was not enginered and so would only give the user his natural ability.--Omni314 (Omni314) 07:58, 22 December 2008 (EST)

  • Because while it's highly likely, saying he did may or may not be speculative, saying he got flight isn't. Please read the numerous topics about this matter above. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 08:01, 22 December 2008 (EST)

If the power Peter has in ACAPD...

... is still considered Empathic Mimicry (can't see why it shouldn't be...), then does no - one else think that the "sparks" Peter "made" when he touched Tracy can finally be used as a picture for it?--IotV 15:50, 3 February 2009 (EST)

  • I wouldn't consider the power that Peter has now as empathetic mimicry. It's more like ability replication, or power borrowing.

Shouldn't this page

Mention the future Peters? They both had new abilities to current day Peter and we have previously listed future characters as holding abilities on the same page as their present counter-parts.--Steelymcbeam 08:00, 4 February 2009 (EST)

  • There's a very well written explanation for this somewhere, but I don't know where it is, so I'll do my best. When present Peter acquires an ability, it is assumed all future versions of him will have the ability (this includes his main ability). When any Future Peter acquires an ability, they are noted as having that ability, present Peter isn't. If present Peter gets an ability one of his future selves has, it is still listed cause he got the same power on a different occasion. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 09:33, 4 February 2009 (EST)

Peter doesn't possess this anymore

In Trust and Blood it's pretty much indicated he has a different power: He doesn't know why but he can only hold one at a time, this was specifically said to Tracy and considering he needs to touch people it's quite likely different. -- Signyour Poste

Yeah, we already had that pretty much figured out last week... Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 20:00, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Change Picture

Wouldn't it be better if the picture was of Peter using an ability with the person he absorbed it from using the same ability at the same time? Sac983 02:31, 11 February 2009 (EST)

  • It would, problem is, there is no such image, at least we don't have it, nor we can find a moment where such thing happened. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 09:55, 11 February 2009 (EST)
  • Yeah. Be my guest to change it to that one if you can find an instance in the show like that... but I really don't recall Peter and another posthuman ever using their ability simultaneously. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 09:56, 11 February 2009 (EST)
    • Peter, in Exposed, used Matt's telepathic ability at the same time as Matt to infiltrate Building 26. I'm not sure if that will make a good picture, though, as telepathic abilities are not that photogenic. --Balkce 06:13, 17 March 2009 (EDT)

What about the picture of Future Hiro and Peter on the train, with time frozen? -- Signyour Poste

Question

How did this power technically work? I keep seeing it works by emotions only at the source of the power or just by thinking about the original source of the ability. I just want to make sure how it worked. --TrueBlueBrooklynite 18:13, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

I thought that it would work only when someone who was empathic and could love unconditionally that they could mimic abilities Gabriel Bishop 18:21, 11 March 2009 (EDT) Gabriel Bishop

  • Yeah, I always understood that it was similar to intuitive aptitude except that while IA allows you to understand how a power works and duplicate it, EM would let you mimic the emotional state that activates the power (remember that often times each person's ability reflects their personality). Does that make sense? --Yamawhata? 18:43, 12 March 2009 (EDT)
    • Yeah that sounds right. I've always seen it as, unlike Sylar using empathy, Peter automatically absorbs the abilities of those in his proximity, and recalls the abilities through "empathy". It doesn't make much sense (or would be hard to do) when he uses multiple abilities at the same time... --Powermimic 04:20, 17 March 2009 (EDT)
      • It does sound as though an empath may suffer from a psychological breakdown down the road, having to recall so many feelings that are not his/her own at a given time. Identifying which feeling is external and which one is personal may create an identification crisis. I'm now wondering if future Peter, beside of the guilt he carried from blowing up in Kirby Plaza, may have been suffering from this as well. --Balkce 06:00, 17 March 2009 (EDT)

Empathy vs Sympathy

I think some distinctions need to be made. I thought of a couple of places to put my thoughts down, and so this will be copied elsewhere. I am going to discuss Sylars use of what you all are referring to as "empathy" to absorb/copy powers. First of all, his primary innate ability is intuitive aptitude. And we all know he studied the brain to learn how the power worked and has such a deep understand is able to replicate it. But his intuitive aptitude goes beyond understand powers, he understands how a watch works etc. But he has learned to understand the emotional side of powers, and has a deep understanding of the emotional impact and is able to replicate powers. Now I would like to throw out a few definitions, I looked up a lot of definitions of both empathy and sympathy. I will just quote something from dicitonary.com. "Both empathy and sympathy are feelings concerning other people. Sympathy is literally 'feeling with' - compassion for or commiseration with another person. Empathy, by contrast, is literally 'feeling into' - the ability to project one's personality into another person and more fully understand that person". So Empathy is more of an effort, you have to put yourself into someone else’s shoes, and (key word here people) UNDERSTANDING a persons feelings, remember Sylar's base ability intuitive aptitude? While on the other hand, as passionate as Peter is (was) his power takes no conscious effort, and is therefore sympathy. Sympathy is just something that happens, while the empathy is a conscious effort of thinking and understanding. So I think Empathic mimicry is not a power really, just an aspect of the aspcetof Intuitive Aptitude that allows for power copying, as it deals with understanding. While Peter's ability should have been called Sympathetic Mimicry. And while I am at it, I just want to say I think Peter's power is ability copying, yet how the copying happens is dependent on his personality. -da_carnivore

  • I always believed that Peter's ability, not how he uses it, but his actual ability is "Power mimicry". It explains how his DNA works, which Mohinder said is like a mosaic. It also explains how he automatically absorbs and sometimes mimics abilities. Now, I do think that Peter found it easy for him to use empathy, "putting himself in others shoes" to use abilities. But he really is just a mimic. --Powermimic 03:27, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
    • Yeah so do I. Just how he abosrbs the ability is different. What I wanted to say is that "empathic mimicry" has been misnamed, it isnt really a power at all it is more a new found aspect of Sylars IA, as empathy requires understanding of a persons feelings etc.

CBR confirms Sylar used Empathic mimicry with Elle and James Martin

...we should add him to this page, with those two examples. Also confirms it wasn't the TK-nosepull like the deleted scene. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 04/7/2009 12:54 (EST)

  • It confirms nothing of the sort. It only says that Sylar used empathy to get James Martin's ability as he did to get Elle's ability, but it doesn't say anything about Peter's old ability. -Sincerely, Thrashmeister » talk- 13:15, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

Why would you say that? Sylar acquired both Elle's ability and James Martin's ability the same way that Peter used to do. They empathized with the ability controller, and mimicked the ability into their quiver of abilities. Aaron flat-out said it wasn't the TK-nose trick from the deleted scene, and Sylar didn't open up his skull and use Intuitive aptitude to gain the ability. Here is what the CBR article stated:

"Ninail has a couple of questions about Sylar: How did Sylar manage to remove the shapeshifter's brain for study without cutting the skull? Through mouth and nose, like with the impenetrable skin guy from the season 2 abandoned scenes? From his evil grin I assume he hadn't gained shapeshifting through empathy"...Aaron and Joe reply: "Empathy is not necessarily exclusive from evil – it’s more about understanding. And understanding James Martin was what Sylar’s journey was all about this particular episode. "

Aaron and Joe both correct her premise that it was Nose-TK and wasn't Empathy, but rather confirm that it was Empathy. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 04/7/2009 14:06 (EST)

    • All they say is that it is an understanding that helped him. Not necessarily empathy. --posted by Laughingdevilboy

Talk 14:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT) How is this different from what we already knew? - Josh (talk/contribs) 14:28, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

      • Actually he said quote: Empathy...it's more about understanding.....understanding James Martin was what Sylar's journey was all about this particular episode". The subject of the explanation was Empathy as to how Sylar acquired James Martin's ability, without making a mark on him. The part where he said Empathy was not exclusive from evil was saying that just because Sylar was evil, didn't mean he couldn't emphathize...rather he did empathize to mimic James Martin's ability in this episode. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 04/7/2009 15:04 (EST)
        • Ok, for the sake of argument say he did use empathy, it still doesn't change anything, it is simply ability development and does not need to be added to empathic mimicry but rather simply said on sylar's ability. In my opinion anyway. --posted by Laughingdevilboy

Talk 15:26, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

    • Would it be a far stretch to say that Sylar used his Intuitive aptitude ability to figure out how things work, to figure out how Empathic mimicry worked, and to add it to his quiver just like he has added other abilities? It's just different in that now that he has Empathic mimicry in his quiver, he can use it directly also, to gain other abilities (Electric manipulation and Shapeshifting) instead of his normal practice of using Telekinesis and Intuitive aptitude to learn new abilities? That's how I see it. EM is one of many abilities Sylar has used IA to acquire, but EM's own innate feature allows him to use it (EM) to also gain additional abilities without relying on IA at all, if he so chooses. --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 04/7/2009 15:36 (EST)
      • My opinion? Empathy = understand how others feel, therefore empathy = an application of IA that has similar effects to EM, even though EM =/= IA. EM just passively and automatically mimics an ability, requiring the user to think about how they felt about the person they got the ability from in order to access it, IA has an active application which allows the user to understand how a subject feels, acquiring their abilities in a way similar to, yet different from EM. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 20:54, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
  • Why would it matter whether Sylar used a special application of IA or just regular EM if the results were the same? What is the point and meaning in differentiating the two? I see no reason not to list EM as an acquired ability for Sylar other than the fact that it hasn't been explicitly stated on screen. IIRC 'empathic mimicry' itself was never named on screen. It seems like people who don't want to recognize Sylar having EM seem to have this mental imprint that Sylar can only acquire new abilities with IA, and any displays of empathy must be attributed to IA because that's how they 'visualize' the character of Syler. IA = Sylar = Bad guy and EM = for the 'good guys.' It's a bit irrational IMO but the facts are Sylar is acquiring abilities without examining a brain directly, and using empathy. If that isn't EM than I don't know what is. Coming up with theories on why what he's doing is just IA is pure speculation. We have a definition of EM, we have seen specific examples of Sylar fulfilling the criteria of EM. My two cents Barbedknives (talk)08:33, 8 April 2009 (EDT)
    • people don't want to list sylar as having EM, because he does NOT have it. We know using empathy to gain an ability is an application of IA that is similar to EM. It's in the same way you can use telepathy to persuade people. It's an example of ability homology, not him having the same ability.

How did we miss this?

“Since Sylar understands and seems to empathize with Luke, does that mean he would've acquired, or can acquire, his microwave powers through empathic mimicry?”

Yes it does. http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=20086 - Josh (talk/contribs) 01:01, 7 May 2009 (EDT)

  • See my numerous posts at Theory talk:Sylar on why Sylar's ability can't be empathic mimicry, also no need to have the same discussion in two pages, if you want, reply at the link, be sure to read everything before doing so. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:48, 7 May 2009 (EDT)
    • That discussion is about a theory; I'm just feeding this information into the discussion of whether or not Sylar's empathic mimicry can be accepted as fact. - Josh (talk/contribs) 18:00, 14 May 2009 (EDT)

What empathic mimicry? Sylar has intuitive aptitude, not empathic mimicry.--ERROR 19:04, 6 June 2009 (EDT)

number of abilities that available

Is it possibilty that a number of abilities can be stored and used, we knew that he had loads of abilities, when Peter had this ability, Arthur might have less depending on how much Peter use an ability that Arthur has absorbed. If you at the list what Peter abilities could have but not use like Clairvoyance then Arthur won't have have it and use IA or telepath to find Hiro, IA anaylsing know what Hiro would do or read mind from past, also having IA and telepath that he can develop telepath quickly and make it into clairvoyance. 50000JH

Sylar has this power...

...as well being natural, How Sylar copied Elles power Empathic, IA and then mimicry. Peter having IA is natual

I know people are going to say a character has one ability. 50000JH

When Sylar talks to Ellie he is connecting with her empathicly and then can mimicry her ability. On sympathic and empathic section here it is saying that Peter does not talk like Sylar did or learn about the person, but being a nurse he dealing with people was his job so being empathic would comes second nature to Peter but not to Sylar and Peter has IA that I reckon he can anaylse human behaviour if possible because of being a nurse but he doing it subconscious and is unaware that is doing it but can't access IA. 50000JH

When Peter was in the cell he manage to phrase without meeting DL, he can't empathicly think about DL because he hasn't met him nor can he empathicly think about Nicki or he gets super strength.50000JH

Sylar said to Noah that he can anaylse human behaviour. I'm wondering can you, would it be possible in the real world to anaylse a thief's mind see how he thinks by scanning it, I know people will say there is no logic but if there is, is he using IA because people personality aren't system and IA is to anaylse system. When he cuts open people head we know that he is looking for the ability source but is he anaylsing the personality and the person.50000JH

Sylar wouldn't have lost abilities he got via brain examination to the Shanti virus if that was the case. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:33, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

To me what Sylar does was get on empathic level, use his IA to anaylse the person then mimic but with Peter he doing it straight away but not knowing he is doing it. I'm sorry if I repeated myself. 50000JH

  • I think IA has a byproduct which acts like EM. Usually, Sylar needs to examine one's brain to understand how one's power works. But how does he absorb it? Here goes the absorbing aspect of IA: after analyzing a power, Sylar replicates it. But Arthur proved brain examination isn't necessary. Still, it required a significant effort to absorb Elle's ability, but I bet it's still needed during brain examination. This process isn't passive. And empathic mimicry is a passive ability, and this is why what Sylar does and what Peter used to be able to do are not the same thing. Green.gif AltesUTC CH

<Spoiler removed>

Do not mention spoiler information out of spoiler pages. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:04, 4 September 2009 (EDT)

Season 3 DVD Confirms Arthur's and Peter's Ability Are The Same.

Thanks to the Season 3 DVD of Heroes, in the special feature "The Writers Forum", they discuss what Arthur's ability was going to be and in comparison to Peter's and finally give us a definitive answer to what there abilities actually are.

They confirmed that they're ability is (the base) "Ability absorption". Arthur's is a 'Version 1.0' of Peter's. They said, "It's a evolution of Peter's ability". And also that, "Peter always had it in him to do exactly what Arthur did. Always had it in him to steal, but Peter chose the lightness rather than the villainy."

It shows that their power is to 'absorb others abilities'. Peter uses empathy and just has to 'feel' the person, while Arthur chooses to 'take' their power, but both are capable of doing both and in fact are the same ability. Just like Knox's Fear-Strength and Niki's Strength are, or Flint's Blue-Pyrokinesis and Meridith's Pyrokinesis.

I also think that Peter's new "touch" ability is also just another evolution of "Ability absorption" and will be able to hold more powers again soon. --Powermimic 02:14, 9 September 2009 (EDT)

  • Wow. Wow! But what about the assignment tracker map? It lists their abilities under different names. Green.gif AltesUTC CH
    • Well for Arthur, 'Power absorption' is correct and for Peter, at the time, he was an empathic power mimic so someone probably came up with 'Empathic mimicry'. But they are really just the name of how they use their ability, not what it actually is. --Powermimic 03:18, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
      • Yeah, I just wondered why ATM lists their abilities different if they are actually the same. Green.gif AltesUTC CH
  • Which disc is this on? - Josh (talk/contribs) 16:46, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
    • Disc 5. --Powermimic 23:13, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
      • The DVD is not a higher source on the naming convention than the Tracker names. So no, nothing changes. This information is relegated to the notes sections. I haven't looked (don't have the time), but if someone has put in a mainspace article that the powers are the same, please move the information to the notes. Although the writers are the authority, the method of which they state their ideas is what's different-what's cannon (what's on the screen) weighs more than what's cut/just ideas (such as deleted scenes or writer interview/DVD commentary). So no, in cannon, Arthur's ability is DIFFERENT than Peter's. Please make appropriate edits. Thank you.--Bob (talk) 22:19, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
        • No, what's canon is that the Company confirmed assignment tracker tips that used different names for it. - Josh (talk/contribs) 22:48, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
        • Agree, Bob. I don't think that I've seen any major edits that changes anything. I'll add to the notes now. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:02, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
          • Additionally, the writers say that one ability is "the evolution" of the other. That does not necessarily mean they are the same ability. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:03, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
            • You mean like freezing and water mimicry? But it was said Peter always could steal powers, he just chose not too. Green.gif AltesUTC CH

I am so confused. How is a Assignment Tracker, more Canon then the actual writers discussing the abilities ? --Scorvi12 06:36, 20 September 2009 (EDT)

  • See help:sources. The Assignment Tracker is a reliable in-world source. Normally it would be considered near-canon. We have deemed the Assignment Tracker a special case for naming of abilities only since the names are given so explicitly. On the other hand, writers discussing something from an out-of-world perspective is a secondary source. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:03, 20 September 2009 (EDT)
    • hmm. so power absorption seems to heavily reflect emotional state. Peter could steal powers if he wanted too, but because he's a nice guy he just copies them, and now he is cut off from everyone and can only take one at a time.

This well mean that someone with power asorption would be immune to space-time manipulation when frozen.[50000JH 17:29, 13 January 2010 (EST)]

Arthur, Peter AND Sylar?

I wouldn't be surprised if next time we'll discover that Sylar's ability is "ability absorption" too, cause Sylar uses its another aspect - hunger for understanding. He already can use the empathic aspect of intuitive aptitude, and BTE said many times it's not different from Peter's ability. Green.gif AltesUTC CH

  • Well Sylar can do something that Peter and Arthur can't. 'Understand how things work.' So I think it's safe to say 'Intuitive Aptitude' is it's own ability and Empathic mimicry is a by-product of it. --Powermimic 01:41, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
    • Actually, it was never stated they couldn't understand how things work. It was also kept secret for a very long time Peter could steal abilities too. So who knows... Maybe Peter didn't actually absorb IA. Maybe Sylar just helped him to unlock this aspect of EM. It's all speculation, of course, but that would be really... dunno. Awesome? Or predictable... Green.gif AltesUTC CH

Arthur told Sylar that he could gain powers by "opening up his heart that a part of him was empathy" that to me is telling a person "how something work" it may not be on the same lines like fixing a watch. Peter had sturcture in his childhood and throughout his life which Sylar didn't. Sylar work on watches which he could have skills pick up he also read brain examanination books and this being heroes his brain evolved it into an ability, Peter work with the sick so he quickly learn how to read Peter and their emotions. although may not be the case. Peter old ability and Sylar could have the same abilities but in different forms and that Peter current ability, aura absorption could be the same abilities but in other forms [[--User:50000JH/signature 12:49, 5 October 2009 (EDT)/signature]]

Is Peter regaining this ability?

Ever since he started helping people again, he seems to be moving back to the Peter we saw from S1. Bonding with Samuel, his general nature with people, it all seems like he's regaining empathy. They've even made it subtle as to whether he has Samuel's ability as well as Super speed. Makes me think we could see Empathic mimicry 2.0, which would be a great story for Peter in terms of dealing with that kind of power again. Anyone else think they're heading this way? -- Mr Zeddemore 18:19, 7 October 2009 (EST)

  • To me Peter didn't loose the ability when he injected himself but had a mental block that he couldn't trust anyone. Started from Arthur.--50000JH 10:08, 1 October 2009 (EDT)50000JH
    • I have to agree, and I really really hope that is the direction they take his character. I have been resenting his new "ability" from the start, but enough is enough. Sylar lost all of his abilities for an entire season, and now Peter has been dealing with his hum-drum ability since the first-half of season 3. I noticed the change in his demeanor during his talk with Samuel, he really did give off a lot of the old Peter vibes from season 1, I don't care if they put a cap on the number of abilities he can absorb, or the type, just so long as he can have some of his old umph back. I was getting fed up with super powerful sylar and his invincibility dance. I want sylar to get his memory and personality back, I want peter to get his mimicry back, and I want an earth shattering showdown between the two, not 2 minutes of one of them hitting the other with a parking meter and then Peter exploding, I'm talking 10 minutes of all out, balls to the wall ass whooping. It's what I'd like to see, some freaking action. Okay I've rambled enough. Fourletterfame 14:25, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

I would like to see the writers develop another form of this ability for Peter, but instead of taking abilities like power absorbtion, he take them like empathic mimicry but can also duplicate an ability to give to another person with or without an ability but has a time limited in which the person he gives it to.[50000JH 16:29, 30 October 2009 (EDT)]

Description

It says when he thinks of the orginal source, could we change this a bit? Or at least said with his power evolutions, he din't needed to think anymore about the source, he could use the powers depending on his emotions. He doens't need to think about the source anymore WaterRatj 10:19, 8 October 2009 (EDT)

    • Well we're pretty sure he no longer needs to think of the source, but we haven't had any real confirmation on it, so it's best not to change it.Gamerelite1 18:37, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

Main Image

Can we changed the image to moving pictures, either to the second time Peter and Sylar meet, or multi screens e.g future Hiro stopping time on the train, him regenerating after meeting Claire and many others.[50000JH 12:21, 29 October 2009 (EDT)]

  • Current image is much better, it shows him using an ability in the presence of the person he got it from. Better than that, only an image of him using an ability at the same time the person he got it from is. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:33, 29 October 2009 (EDT)

Name change to Power Mimicry

Has is been conclusively shown that the actual canon name of the ability is empathic mimicry? Further more, as the description has changed to not reference any involvement with sympathy or empathy, I submit that we rename this ability. For this and many other reasons. If you would like to see a more in depth explanation, see my section on the Sylar theories talk page, 'Abilities and Assumptions,' found here. -Barbedknives (talk) 05:30, 11 November 2009 (EST)

  • Assignment tracker map lists Peter's ability as such. Green.gif AltesUTC CH

Can I ask you something?

With EM, Peter automatically absorbed every ability around him, though he may have never displayed some of them. Is it correct? Green.gif AltesUTC CH 10:02, 12 December 2009 (EST)

  • Yes, we consider all abilities he is around as absorbed, but he only manifests the ones he actually uses. --mc_hammark 10:12, 12 December 2009 (EST)

Lead Image

Any one oppose of this image becoming the new lead image? It's a lot clearer/lighter than the one we have now, and show the two fighting invisibly. Thoughts?--Catalyst · Talk · HL 20:46, 20 December 2009 (EST)

  • My problem with that picture is that it just looks like two people fighting, but shows no clear power use. The one we have right now isn't the best, but at least it shows him displaying an ability. Vampirate68 | Talk | Contribs 21:08, 20 December 2009 (EST)
    • Agree. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:32, 20 December 2009 (EST)
      • I always liked the one when Peter manifests precognition near Isaac. He looks at the unfinished painting with Sylar and sees something in the empty space. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 03:57, 22 December 2009 (EST)

Arthur

Why do we list Arthur as having absorbed this? It was my understanding that Arthur's name was added only to the abilities he demonstrated and he never demonstrated Empathic mimicry so shouldn't it just read Peter (lost)?--Evil Maldini 12:12, 8 January 2010 (EST)

  • Because Peter clearly lost this ability when Arthur took it, implying that Arthur absorbed it. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:27, 8 January 2010 (EST)