Talk:Enhanced strength/Archive 1

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Examples

  • I don't think Niki broke the guard's baton in Godsend. I think Jessica took over briefly to keep from getting hit; her expression changed, and Niki didn't seem to understand how she ended up with a broken baton in her hands. They flipped back and forth rapidly in that episode, all apparently at Jessica's discretion. --Ted C 09:43, 23 January 2007 (EST)
    • I really am a bit frustrated that we're saying Niki broke the baton, since my viewing of the seen has Jessica breaking it and leaving Niki holding the pieces. Anyone else have an opinion on this? --Ted C 12:20, 23 January 2007 (EST)
      • I agree, but I get the impression we're a distinct minority. To me, it looks like Jessica's face when she grabs it, and Niki's face when she realizes it's broken.--Hardvice (talk) 12:22, 23 January 2007 (EST)
        • I agree with both of you, actually. That was exactly what I assumed it was when I watched the episode. (Admin 12:30, 23 January 2007 (EST))
      • My impression exactly. I've basically toned down the language in the article without completely discounting the assertion that it was Niki. --Ted C 12:29, 23 January 2007 (EST)
      • The reason I was so convinced that it was Niki is that it seemed she was very surprised that she could do that and there was never that switch-to-Jessica moment. I watched that moment about eight times to make sure. As an actor, it looked looked like Ari was trying not to look too intense when she caught the baton. Finally, the only reason to include the scene is that it's a significant moment - Niki discovering her strength. --Fcphantom 13:42, 23 January 2007 (EST)
      • When watching, I saw what I considered to be a rather telling change in expression on Niki's face just before she grabbed the baton. Niki was simply surprised to find herself holding two pieces of baton instead of lying on the floor with a new bruise. I just don't seen any compelling evidence that Niki accessed the power. --Ted C 13:44, 23 January 2007 (EST)
        • In any case, I'm fine with it being ambiguous, but I'd be willing to bet I'm right :-) --Fcphantom 13:52, 23 January 2007 (EST)
          • I'm always willing to be convinced by the evidence. --Ted C 14:10, 23 January 2007 (EST)
            • I might be putting my foot in my mouth if I'm proved wrong next week, but I really believe that it was Niki who broke the baton. It was Niki who was getting emotional, not Jessica - and Jessica has really only appeared to serve a purpose - breaking the baton seemed to be purely emotional, no purpose involved. Watching it again, it looks to me like Niki is only shocked that she was able to access the power, not that she blacked out for a moment. (Further, I think that Niki accessing her power would be a really good direction for her character, but that's neither here nor there.)

              That said, we obviously have some differing opinions, and the episode was not very clear. To say it's definitely Niki or Jessica is speculative, I guess. I like the language that's in the article space now. It's ambiguous in the caption, and it's clear in the example that we just don't know. I say we leave it at that until we learn that Niki is either Hulk Hogan or just a dud. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:09, 23 January 2007 (EST)

              • That's just where I wanted to go. I'm not dreadfully attached to my interpretation of the scene, but I think it's just as valid as the "Niki did it" interpretation, so the write-up needs to be ambiguous until we have more information. --Ted C 16:51, 23 January 2007 (EST)
              • I dunno, dude. Looks like a pretty Jessicaesque expression to me: Jessica grabs baton.jpg--Hardvice (talk) 03:19, 24 January 2007 (EST)
                • I watched it again frame-by-frame. I think our problem stems from a bad edit from the shot where she grabs the baton (very Jessica-like expression, pictured above), to where she breaks the baton (more Niki-like). When she's holding the baton level and actually snapping it she looks more like Niki. --Fcphantom 11:16, 24 January 2007 (EST)
                • I doubt we'll get any confirmation of this particular incident. We'll just have to look to future episodes to see if Niki displays super strength again. --Ted C 11:26, 24 January 2007 (EST)
                  • I read somewhere (it was an official source, too) that it was confirmed that Niki did infact manifest the power, although I'm not sure where... - Are you on the list? Kaiser 13:50, 3 February 2007 (EST)
                    • I happen to agree with you that it was Niki, not Jessica. Can you find that official source? The only official sources I know of are the episodes themselves and possibly the graphic novels. If somebody said it in an interview, it wouldn't necessarily be taken as "an official source", but should definitely be noted. But since I happen to personally agree with you on this ambiguous point, I'd love to read the comments made by somebody involved in production, or whereever you found the confirmation. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:05, 3 February 2007 (EST)
                    • It's Leonard Roberts and Jack Coleman in the video commentary. I'd say that it makes it probably true, but considering how little they tell these actors about what's really going on, you never can tell. Still not a canon source, though.--Hardvice (talk) 14:46, 3 February 2007 (EST)
                    • I'm going with Niki. Because there is no way Jessica would lose control over Niki that fast. If it was Jessica, then Niki appearing afterwards doesn't make sense from what we know of Jessica (at that time), Jessica would most likely attack the guard, and then maybe relinquish control of Niki. Dman dustin

Enhanced Toughness

As noted already, a certain amount of superhuman durability is inherently required to apply enhanced strength: if you're muscles can apply enough force to bend a steel bar, but your bones can't withstand that force, you'll break your own limbs. Jessica is obviously tough enough to withstand her own uses of her strength, but Fallout showed that her toughness extends to resisting certain kinds of attacks: when DL hit her hard in the body with the flat of a shovel blade, she got back up immediately, and neither she nor Niki showed any sign of injury. --Ted C 13:11, 13 December 2006 (EST)

I pulled the following example as a follow up to changing the Limits description.

  • Jessica takes a hard blow to the belly from a swung shovel without apparent injury. (Fallout)

We can put it back if we get more evidence of superhuman toughness. --Ted C 15:30, 4 January 2007 (EST)

No, I think it's fine to leave it out. It doesn't really show her "strength", just her toughness. (PS - I've taken a shovel hit before and survived - and "enhanced strength" is not my superpower.) - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:55, 4 January 2007 (EST)
Yes, but did you walk around afterward as if nothing happened? --Ted C 00:00, 5 January 2007 (EST)
Oh, sure - and I ran a marathon right after. Exhilarating! :) - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:14, 5 January 2007 (EST)

Enhanced Reflexes

I'm tempted to take out the "enhanced reflexes" note and move it to Theories, since there's no real evidence that Jessica has superhuman speed or reflexes. --Ted C 17:07, 14 December 2006 (EST)

  • I'd say so, too. There's also a lot of discussion regarding consequential powers. Like Jessica needing enhanced durability because super strength requires she not injure herself or Nathan needing durability, too, to withstand supersonic flight. I think we'll find Nathan can be injured just as easily as someone else, but whether it's true or not is just a theory. I dont think we should speculate in the main articles on these consequential powers and just discuss their proven powers for the time being. (Admin 17:13, 14 December 2006 (EST))
    • Well, since I wrote the claims, I'll note that Jessica would injure her own arm trying to pull the door off a safe if her bones, joints, and muscles couldn't withstand the force. We also have the related evidence of DL smacking her with a shovel and doing nothing more than knock her down by sheer momentum. Enhanced reflexes aren't inherently required to use enhanced strength, and she hasn't done anything to demonstrate superior reflexes. --Ted C 17:39, 14 December 2006 (EST)
      • It's true that her super strength requires the durability as a natural consequence, but it's unclear currently whether it's a power that merits specific mention or whether we're expected to just suspend disbelief. If we accept the consequential powers then with the strength she has she might technically be able to stop bullets with her hand, but then she becomes virtually invulnerable and I suspect that wasn't their intention. My view is that as a result it's still speculation since they haven't addressed these consequential powers. How does everyone else feel? (Admin 17:50, 14 December 2006 (EST))
        • We have to remember that we're just giving a name to each power. The power Nathan has (which we have named "flight"), for instance, might be more than just the act of levitating and flying - there might be something inherently built in to help him resist injury while he's flying — but all that's speculation. We just call it what we call it, and make notes about it. We do know (based on what Mr. Bennet told Sylar) that Jessica only has one power. We call it "enhanced strength". But that doesn't mean her power can't include some other attributes along with being really strong. But again - speculation. - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:22, 14 December 2006 (EST)
  • I think I tossed in that note about the reflexes. I had tried to support it with evidence -- the fact being that she killed a room full of people within a very short period of time that Ando and Hiro were out of the money launderer's main room. The D.L./Jessica fights (particular the one at their house) also seemed to show Jessica "sped-up", she was moving pretty swiftly and caught D.L. quite off guard until he had time to react to what was happening. So, I don't think it's a theory, I think it's an observation. I'm not attached to this POV, though; I guess the line between theory and proof is thin -- Xanen 20:10, 14 December 2006 (EST)
    • I'm just not seeing that her reflexes are enhanced. She usually has the element of surprise, since people don't expect meek little Niki to suddenly rip their arms off. Furthermore, she's not afraid to use guns, which would help in the mass combats. If we see a real indication of superhuman reflexes, then I'm all for adding them in, but I haven't seen her do anything superhuman in that regard, yet. --Ted C 22:51, 14 December 2006 (EST)
      • The fact that Jessica killed a room full people in a short period of time is just because she moves fast and gets the job done. Jessica doesn't dilly daddle with her head in the clouds like "Oh whatever, I'll just take my time and enjoy killing them. And if I get caught then oh well." Jessica works in secret and when she has a goal, she strives to get it done, no questions asked and will take down anyone or anything that gets n her way. She simply has to move fast, especially in that situation, remember that at that time she had left in the middle of the night and had to be back quickly or D.L. would be suspicious. And with her superhuman strength, she can get things done quickly. Jessica isn't stupid. When she was battling D.L., she had to get it done fast because Micah was in the house and needed to leave quicky. As with the baton and the police officer, Jessica had to defend Niki and herself and she saw it coming and didn't want to get hit because it would hurt Niki when she was in control. I don't think they have superhuman reflexes. Elemental5293 18:03, 28 December 2007 (EST)

Niki and the Baton, round 17

Peter?

In Five Years Gone, when Peter was making his way towards the interrogation room, did he use super-strength on that one Homeland Security agent? I'm not exactly sure. DannyP 00:30, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

  • Possibly. May have also been telekinesis. I don't remember if he even touched the guy or not. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:50, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
    • I just watched the scene and Peter was touching him. He grabbed him, spun around, and threw him against the wall. Peter probably did use enhanced strength. He is always around Niki, being his girlfriend.--Ice Vision 00:57, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
      • I think he used space-time manipulation, since that looked like a super-speed spin. Doesn't necessarily mean he didn't use enhanced strength, too, though. --Ted C 10:35, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
        • Space-time manipulation has never been used like that. Besides, the audio and visual cues would've been used if it were space-time manipulation. And the spin wasn't that fast. DannyP 20:21, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

Would it be reasonable to conclude that Peter absorbed this power from Niki in How to Stop an Exploding Man (and then used it to pound Sylar a bit)? --Ted C 09:26, 22 May 2007 (EDT)

Yep thats exactly what happened.--Steelymcbeam 12:56, 13 January 2009 (EST)

Unaired scene from The Hard Part

Did you guys see the unaired scene from The Hard Part where Jessica goes all ape-s••• on Linderman's archives? She pushes over a display, and D.L. gets into an argument with some dude. Crazy. — RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 13:32, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

How To Stop An Exploding Peter

  • I swear that Peter was using enhanced strength while he was punching Sylar right after Niki totally PWNED Sylar with a parking meter. Jason Garrick 22:05, 22 May 2007 (EDT)

Image Request

Could someone please upload a clean image of Niki holding the parking meter? --Ted C 14:51, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Super Strength.

Canonical name stated by Micah in Powerless, wink wink nudge nudge say no more!--Riddler 00:26, 4 December 2007 (EST)

  • Snap-snap, grin-grin, wink-wink, say no more?--Riddler 02:11, 4 December 2007 (EST)
  • Enhanced and Super means the same thing. I don't think this one warrants such a major rehaul in the name. --Piemanmoo 02:17, 4 December 2007 (EST)
    • Hey, it's what they said. We have to go with the canonical source, according to the naming conventions, ala Lightning and Replication (which, by the way, means the same thing as Duplication WHICH is the common comic book name). The way I see it, we keep replication, we have to retitle this page.--Riddler 02:20, 4 December 2007 (EST)
      • I concur for the these reasons, the other word being used by canon requires the change SacValleyDweller (talk) 02:23, 4 December 2007 (EST)
        • Know what I mean, say no more!--Riddler 17:46, 4 December 2007 (EST)
          • If there is no primary-level (Episodic) reference to this power being Enhanced Strength, then the naming conventions of Heroes Wiki would require the name to be changed to Micah's primary-level (Episodic) name of Super Strength. Shouldn't be any arguements, if their is no primary-level quotations of E.H. (plus it sounds better and is a more mainstream description anyway.) --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 12/4/2007 17:57 (EST)
            • No complaints from me. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:26, 4 December 2007 (EST)
              • Remember that Micah is an 11 year old kid who stays at home and reads comic books... he would call it super strength. But Enhanced strength would make more sense for an older crowd. And they are the same thing so why are we even having this conversation?... we rename things too much--.Vault 20:30, 4 December 2007 (EST)
                • The minute we start placing judgments on our characters' knowledge base and ignoring things they say because they're "just a kid", we enter dangerous territory. We rightfully renamed photographic reflexes "muscle mimicry" based on Micah's comments, and if he reads comic books, I would take his word over most characters. But if they're the same thing, what does it matter that we rename it? Does it hurt anything to rename it? We rename things based on new information from the show--as the show progresses, so does our site. I'm certainly glad we renamed Mr. Bennet "Noah Bennet", and Betty "Candice Willmer", and muscle mimicry "adoptive muscle memory". If there's a serious concern with renaming articles, I'd like to hear it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:37, 4 December 2007 (EST)
  • I beleive it been called just plain ol' "strength" many times in the show. --Hero!(talk)(contribs) 20:46, 4 December 2007 (EST)
    • Hiro called Charlie's power "Very Big Memory" in an episode. Should we change that one as well? --Piemanmoo 21:23, 4 December 2007 (EST)
      • This is what I'm trying to get at. ;)--Riddler 21:25, 4 December 2007 (EST)
      • I wouldn't be opposed to that. However, I think that was a joke from the writers. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:27, 4 December 2007 (EST)

Micah's power has always been called Talking to Machines, so wha about that one too? Where are we going to draw the line?--Piemanmoo 21:44, 4 December 2007 (EST)

  • Where do you want to draw the line? It seems to me like you're trying to stir up controversy or contention. As far as I know, nobody has argued that the name of Micah's or Charlie's power should be changed. I feel as though you're searching for examples of problems in power names where there really are none. If you think a name should be changed, then by all means suggest it on the appropriate page. If there is general consensus, then it will be changed. If not, then it won't. It's really pretty simple. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:47, 4 December 2007 (EST)
    • I'm just trying to use these as examples. I don't think changing Charlie or Micah's powers for those reasons would make much sense. I'm just saying that the curret power naming conventions should be taken with a grain of salt. If we were to stick by the literal, by-the-books, 100% accurate, no interpretations version of the conventions, about half of the power names would be changed right now. I think if anything needs a rehaul, it's the naming conventions. It seems like they stir up more debates than they extinguish.--Piemanmoo 22:09, 4 December 2007 (EST)
      • Put VERY well. My personal opinion is that using something out of someones speech, unless it is a direct naming of the power, shouldn't be used to decide the powers name. For example, I know that Liquefaction is on the brink of being changed because it was stated that they could "Melt things." That's like saying saying Technopathy is "Machine Talking" because Micah said he could talk to machines, yet we use Technopathy because it is the correct term. I agree very much with Pieman in that the conventions, though they may not be needed to change directly, they need to be amended.--Riddler 22:32, 4 December 2007 (EST)
      • I disagree. People still come in suggesting "electrokinesis" and a bunch of other misnamed "-kinesis"es, and our naming conventions makes it very easy to say "no" when appropriate. Debate is not a bad thing, especially when it comes to the wiki. It helps people (including me, of course) think outside their own preconceived ideas of what something should be or look like. Discussion is the backbone of the wiki, and it sometimes takes the form of debate when people have wildly varying opinions. There's nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with renaming articles to be more in line with Heroes, and less bent towards fan opinions and speculation. I understand why you are using Micah and Charlie as examples. Playing Devil's Advocate can be a very good tool for making a point. But the most amount of negative debate in the above conversation seems to be coming from you, and that's not very helpful. If you have a suggestion for how to rehaul the naming conventions, I think I speak for the other administrators in saying that we're open to suggestions. That doesn't mean we won't have a counterargument, but we'll certainly listen to and consider whatever plan you present. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:30, 4 December 2007 (EST)
      • It's a good point that Piemanmoo makes (even though it could use a little more tact :) ). I think technopathy is a much more appropriate term than "talking to machines" despite it being how Micah refers to his ability so we may need to try to find a set of guidelines where an obviously better term can take precedence. If not then we return to all power names being completely debatable despite their source (and the naming conventions become meaningless). This isn't something we need to solve immediately, but we should try to solve it soon. (Admin 22:33, 4 December 2007 (EST))
        • I certainly agree, it's not a perfect system, and I don't have a suggestion on how to handle names like technopathy where a descriptive name is clearly better than what Micah may have called it. Perhaps we should look at the context of the canon source, or see if the character was naming the power, referring to it with whatever words he could, or simply speaking about it conversationally. I don't know if there's a straightforward solution. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:45, 4 December 2007 (EST)
          • Yeah, I definitely don't think it's going to be cut and dry. Until the policy can be analyzed and adapted I definitely agree we should keep the existing names as they are rather than going with what at least I would consider to be poorer (albeit found in canonical sources) names. It sounds like we agree there's a flaw in the current convention strategy and I'm confident we can all put some effort into it and tweak it so that we end up with a deterministic process for identifying the official name of the ability here. Like everything else here, there's always room for improvement! :) Actual suggestions for changes to the policy should of course go on Help talk:naming conventions as I believe Ryan made reference to previously. (Admin 22:49, 4 December 2007 (EST))
          • Here's how I see it. Micah says that St. Joan is a "Muscle Mimic" in relation to Monica. Acceptable ability name. Then, Mohinder says to Monica (to my memory) "You're the first to show Adoptive Muscle Memory." The scientific name would take precedence. However, in other cases, Sylar says something to the effect of "I can freeze things." He's stating what he can do, rather than a name for the power, thus in this case I believe we should skip to level two (or further) in the naming conventions.

Summary: If the power is explicitly named, we go with that, with a scientific name taking precedence. If it's only mentioned as an adjective, we find the best description.--Riddler 22:55, 4 December 2007 (EST)

  • It's going to be more complicated than that. If you're interested in discussing it, let's continue this on Help talk:naming conventions where it belongs. (Admin 23:04, 4 December 2007 (EST))
    • Uh, guys, I think you should call it super strength. In the comic book world, enhanced strength is used. Enhanced strength is merely above than average human strength while superhuman or just super strength is well beyond above and beyond average human strength. Look at it. Someone with enhanced strength would be able to deliver harder and stronger than normal blows and lift heavy objects to an extent, right. Someone with enhanced, that is above-average human or Olympic strength, should not be able to tear people in half and punch through people, pull a safe door off with their bare hands, break restraints that could hold down an elephant, bend steel bars, thorw and lift people off their feet as if they were rags and punch down or through thick doors. I think Micah just described it right. I think that if the show didn't have to worry about the cost of visual effects, Tim Kring probably would have had Niki and Jessica throwing cars, crushing and flattening solid objects with their fingers, and punching and running through brick walls. Same goes for Monica. There is no point in calling it adoptive muscle mimicry. Just take away the pointless adoptive. Or you can just call it photographic reflexes. You can either call Charlie's power, eidetic memory, superhuman memory, or photographic memory. That's where it doesn't matter. Elemental5293 17:44, 28 December 2007 (EST)

Rename

Since Knox's AT says that he has "enhanced strength," should we rename this to "enhanced strength?" The Company's terminology trumps Micah's comic book knowledge, No? --SacValleyDweller (talk) 20:55, 26 September 2008 (EDT)

  • I agree. However, even Niki called it that. My thought is that Knox may not have the same ability as Niki, and should go under "enhanced strength" by itself, whereas Niki's ability stays as super strength. It appears that fear enhances Knox's strength, whereas Niki was just buff like that.--Bob (talk) 20:57, 26 September 2008 (EDT)
    • Mohinder called it super strength in The Second Coming.--Referos 18:43, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
      • He was also referring to a different ability. --Bob (talk) 19:04, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
        • I mean when he was arguing with Maya in Isaac's loft, before he injected himself. He said something like "each individual's blood chemistry is unique...these abilities could manifest in an infinite number of ways...flight, telepathy, super strength..."--Referos 21:09, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
          • Ah, I get you. Like I said, I still think that Knox's ability will not be the same as Niki and Jessica's, so the Company's AT labeling his ability "enhanced strength" can apply to his, and "super strength" can apply to Jessica and Niki's ability. This way, there is a canon source for both without conflict.--Bob (talk) 21:15, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
            • Hey, I'm new here, if I can just put my two cents in...um...well, if you're thinking of Knox's power as a seperate power called "Enhanced Strength," perhaps it could be called "Fear-Enhanced Strength". I think that combines canon the Enhanced Strength mentioned on Knox's AT, and what Noah said. Just thought I'd put that out there... Super-Hiro 14:29, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
              • Thanks, Super-Hiro. We'll definitely keep Knox's power name as "enhanced strength" since it was so explicitly named in the assignment tracker profile. We won't mess with that one. We might end up distinguishing Niki's power as "super strength" if the two powers end up being wildly different...but what we'll probably do is simply expand the limits of the power as our understanding of it grows. It's kind of like telepathy--before we met Maury, all we knew of the power was that Matt could read the minds of others. As we progressed throughout the season, we learned that telepathy also has the capability of controlling the minds of others, of placing thoughts in their heads, and even trapping people in their nightmares. I have a feeling that as we see what Knox can do, we'll just expand our understanding of the limits of enhanced strength. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:59, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
                • Okay, fair enough. Just saying IF there is a new article needed for Knox's ability at some point, I think instead of "Enhanced Strength," "Fear Enhanced Strength," would be kinda good for clarity's sake, and it still follows the name conventions, I think Super-Hiro 15:37, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
                  • I second Super-Hiro on this one, i don't think enhanced strength is descriptive enough, and canon or not, i believe Fear Enhanced Strength fits it better just so the general population isn't confused. My vote is Fear Enhanced Strength.--Pbmarcano 00:16, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
                    • Whether or not the name is clearer, the canon name will take precedence. Names directly specified by Primatech remain as they are given, because that is the undisputed in-world name. --Max 03:19, 26 December 2008 (EST)

Split

So I made the rename tag a split, because I believe that Knox's ability is different than Niki/Jessica's. For instance, Knox can feel people's fear, and stated the fear around him makes him stronger. Noah has also stated this to Claire. I agree that the strength aspect is shared, but fear-detection is new, as is the source of the strength. In addition to this, we have a canon source naming Knox's ability (the AT) and one naming Jessica/Niki's (from Micah, Niki and Mohinder). Does anyone else agree that these two abilities are different? If so, do you think that Knox's ability should be named "Enhanced strength"? I feel it's sufficient because it appears that fear enhances his strength, and the AT explicitly states his ability's name.--Bob (talk) 00:25, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

  • I agree that they are definitely different abilities. I just wish that Enhanced Strength wasn't canon... I want something more descriptive like Fear Absorption. But canon trumps all so I'd split the pages as Enhanced Strength and Super Strength.
    • While they are very different, I'd prefer we kept the two pages together until we knew exactly how Knox's powers worked. --Piemanmoo 01:40, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
      • I'm not so sure they are different. I think we're learning of a different aspect of the ability that Niki/Jessica never knew how to access. I definitely think they should be kept together on the same page, and the differences should be explained in the article. On pages like the list of abilities, or the lead description of this page, a description should be used that aptly describes both powers: "the ability to exert greater than normal physical force" is fine for both. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:46, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
        • I think it's a bit speculative to say that Niki/Jessica could feel fear. Knox made it very clear that he could feel an individual's fear, and in addition to that, that he "absorbs" the fear of others to make him stronger. That's vastly different than Jessica or Niki, who just exerted great amounts of force. There was never a mention about fear or feeling fear around them, but it's a very specific comment made by Knox, as well as something known by the Company. Just my thought, but I really do feel that they're different.--Bob (talk) 02:00, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
          • Personally, I believe super strength = enhanced strength. And given that we've seen "enhanced strength" on an assignment tracker in the show I'd advocate renaming super strength to enhanced strength and using it for both Niki and Knox. This would be similar to say Mohinder providing a new name for something already named in the show. There's a subjective canon vs canon determination that we've made in the past, too. I don't see a minor difference like Knox getting his strength from fear to be significant enough to warrant its own article, I think it simply needs to be documented as an aspect of Knox's manifestation of the ability. I think we're going to be seeing a lot more abilities which are the same but ever so slightly different and I think the writers are going to use the same name for the abilities so in the end we're going to end up doing it, too. (Admin 02:04, 30 September 2008 (EDT))
            • I also think that the abilities shouldn't be split as they're so similar (both forms of telepathy {dream and voice} are together). However, if enhanced strength is now an equally canon name, I think that we aught to use it now as it's broader and better encompasses Knox's ability. I also like that enhanced strength is a more scientific-sounding name (not that that matters).--MiamiVolts (talk) 03:07, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
              • It was listed on the Knox's assignment tracker as seen in the episode itself therefore as it pertains to Knox it is definitely canon. I would also say that if Niki had an assignment tracker that said "enhanced strength" that we'd want to use it over the "super strength" that Niki and Micah called it. People like Mohinder and The Company get preferential treatment when it comes to the names they use for the abilities. All that being said, the question is whether people are comfortable with using "enhanced strength" as a canonical name for Niki's ability as well. I think it's kind of stretching the policies a little, but if there were consensus I think it would be alright (I'm in favor of it myself). Regardless of whether we renamed Niki's ability (as displayed on Niki Sanders for instance) to enhanced strength or not, I'd still advocate renaming the article itself (which I feel should include both Knox and Niki) to "enhanced strength" (with a redirect for super strength) since if we pick a single name for the ability then we're better off going with The Company's term over a term used by laycharacters. (Admin 03:15, 30 September 2008 (EDT))
                • I agree with the rename to "enhanced strength", and I agree with the single article for both characters.
          • Bob, I don't think Niki/Jessica could feel fear, and I hope you don't think I was suggesting that. I also don't think these are two separate powers, but rather two aspects of the same power, or two separate ways the power manifests itself in two separate individuals (three, I guess, if you count the Sanderses as two people). I think we could keep the same page for both characters, and explain the differences in the body of the article. The descriptions in the infobox and on the list of abilities should read something like "the ability to exert greater than normal strength" or something like that. It's definitely what Jessica can do, and it's definitely what Knox can do. Then the differences (that Knox can sense fear and he uses it enhance his strength) should be explained in the Limits section.... To me, it's very similar to how we handled cloning and telepathy (for a time). Evan and Julien have the same basic power, but with very different limits. Maury and Matt could do the same basic thing, but Maury had progressed far beyond what his son could ever do (at first). The powers are the same, but the limits are different for each character. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 08:29, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
            • I think that the two powers are very different. Knox even states during the bank robbery that he is all juiced up and he can sense fear. Niki couldn't do that. I think there should be a split. Should we have a consensus for a name change or a split... or both?Jason Garrick 12:34, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
              • What Ryan is saying, and I definitely concur, is that the powers are actually not very different. They're small differences in exactly how the power manifests that do not necessarily warrant separate articles but simply an explanation on a single ability page explaining how they each use and activate their power differently. Flint and Meredith are both pyrokinetic, but we don't split the abilities out just because his flames are blue and hers are orange. They're minor differences and are best documented with a single page. (Admin 12:46, 30 September 2008 (EDT))

Well, good arguments from people. Personally I don't mind. I was originally going to say I think a split would be good, as the latest Graphic Novel makes it quite clear the fear sensing is a specific part of his ability, which gives him the strength, which is quite a bit different than Niki/Jessica, who just had the ability. But now I'm not so sure... Super-Hiro 13:46, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

  • I understand the arguments, but I just don't see how something like "sensing fear" is something that's a minute difference. The difference between cloning for Evan and Julien is a matter of how they come out, but we're talking about a completely different aspect to the ability. If sensing someone's fear was all that Knox did, this would be an ability in and of itself. The difference between telepathy is because of what Maury told Matt, that he too had the ability. I know I won't win this argument, but I still think that the fact he a) feels fear, and b) can absorb fear makes this a very different ability.--Bob (talk) 14:27, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
    • Minor difference or major difference, sensing fear is only a part of Knox's ability. It's how he gets his strength. The basic abilities of Knox and Niki/Jessica--that of enhanced strength--is the same. They seem to access their strength differently, but that doesn't mean that they're different powers. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:52, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
      • I think a good example is the Cloning ability. Even the mechanics of it are different between Julien and Evan, but it's still the same ability so we document it in a single article and simply explain the differences in how they manifest. (Admin 16:55, 30 September 2008 (EDT))
  • I also understand both of the arguments though right now I am more leaning towards the argument of having them split to Super strength and Enhanced strength. The way I see it is even the given names, though similar, separate the abilities. 'Super Strength' implies that someone is naturally and always extra powerful while 'Enhanced strength' implies that some source is increasing (enhancing) the strength, which in Knox's case would be fear. Another difference between the two would be that with super strength would seem to have set amount of strength, albeit a large amount, while enhanced strength would vary depending on the source that is doing the enhancing. Due to these reasons I have begun to lean towards the side arguing to have them split. The Shadow 14:38, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  • Shadow makes an extremely good point. I agree with him completely. Jason Garrick 14:59, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  • With the arguments above, I to think that Knox's strength is different that Niki/Jessica's. Minor or major difference as it may be that Knox's strength is, as he says, derived from the fear of others, I think it is significant enough that it warrants the split. Also, the "Fear sensing" bit on it's own would warrant an article, would it not? --SacValleyDweller (talk) 19:16, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  • Since we don't know the limits of either, I think they are different powers in the strength aspect (putting aside that the fear sensing is clearly different). Knox's strength is based on how much fear he can absorb from those around him, so if he was facing someone who wasn't afraid, or was by himself and, let's say, needed to lift something extremely heavy, I would think he wouldn't have any excess strength at all (ie - not be able to access his power and be within the noraml strength range for his body type), whereas Jessica/Niki seemed to always have access to the full extent of her strength (sans virus or Niki's emotional woes). Conversely, while Jessica's strength was capped at whatever it normally was, Knox's probably has a greater upper limit, if there were enough scared people (eg - a football stadium full of terrified individuals...or if Knox was paired up with someone with Guillame's ability (Bliss & Horror)). We also don't know if their strengths are complementary or not... Peter has absorbed both, so does he start out with Niki's strength, the fear around him adding to that, or does the fear that it takes Knox to get to Niki's strength level not affect Peter, only giving him additional strength after he reaches that limit? I'm on the fence as to whether this deserves a separate page or just a lot of notes on the one page (and on Knox's). I'm leaning toward the former since Peter was able to absorb both abiities, and it would look better if they were not stated as being the same.Stevehim 19:54, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  • It's quite obvious that the two abilities are not one in the same, Niki has shown an excessive amount of strength while those around her were not afraid of anything, she always installed the fear. (ex. her in prison, her throwing linderman across the room in season 1) Knox on the other hand has been proven to be completely weak and needs to install fear within the people first before he gets strong. as shown in season 3 and graphic novels. the evidence is quite clear that the two abilities are not the same and this helps me prove that sometimes we need to steer away from our good old naming convention because sometimes canon sources just don't cut it...--Pbmarcano 22:12, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
    • I don't think that's obvious at all, but rather speculative. I don't know of a time that Knox was shown to be weak, or that he needs to instill fear. I agree that he feeds off the fear of others, but not that he is weak without fear. But even if that were true, the two powers are fundamentally the the same--both Knox and Jessica exhibit an enhanced amount of strength. They may get it from different places, but they power they exhibit is the same. It would be like if you were to live off a diet made up entirely of seafood, whereas I ate only vegetables. Our food might be different, but the our abilities to metabolize that food would be the same. This is an article about the characters' abilities, not what feeds those abilities. Sure, we should mention the differences, just as we mention the differences between all the characters who can paint the future. But just because one uses heroin and another uses a Walkman, or just because one draws like Tim Sale and one draws like Alex Maleev, that doesn't mean the powers are different. Just because one can access her strength whenever she wants, and the other uses the fears of others to get strong, that doesn't mean they have different abilities. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:44, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
      • While there is no indication that Knox is weak in the absence of fear, there's also no indication that he has any abnormal strength in that situation. HRG says Knox can 'absorb a person's fear and turn it into his own strength, incredible strength,' so the power actually has another component (ie - fear absorption). He uses his ability (the ability to absorb fear and convert it into strength) to give him additional might, but the enhanced strength is technically the ends, not the means (the means being absorption and conversion of fear). Many other powers, which are/can be used toward the same results are listed separately. Levitation and Telekinesis are both used to move objects with the mind. Aura absorption, Empathic Mimicry and Intuitive Aptitude are all used to absorb the abilities of others. Flight and Levitation (and Telekinesis) can all be used to defy gravity. Appearance Alteration and Illusion can both be used to change the appearance of someone else (as can Telepathy). Telepathy and Persuasion can both be used to control someone else's actions against their will. Etc etc. So while the results of using some of these powers can be the same, there are marked differences (eg - Telepathy can be used for other things too). I also wonder if Knox's ability is limited to strength, as there seems to be something going on with speed as well (or something, as there is a clear visual change when he kills The German and attacks Peter for the first time). Stevehim 07:18, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
        • Every one of those powers you listed have been specifically as different abilities by in-world authorities (the Company, the Sureshes). But I'm also not suggesting that Knox has any abnormal strength in the absence of someone else's fear, just as I'm not suggesting (or the article isn't suggesting) that Niki/Jessica isn't strong without becoming her alter ego. What I am suggesting is that we explain the differences in the article itself. Noah himself said that Knox has "incredible strength", and his assignment tracker profile lists his ability as "enhanced strength". Even if it's not the perfect name for his power, it's still his power. Just as we did with telescopic vision--a name given to us by an assignment tracker profile, but which doesn't fully describe Donna's ability--we use the name given to us, and we explain what the person can do on the page. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 08:24, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
          • But we currently are not using the name given to us by the assignment tracker, were using super strength when it clearly says enhanced strength. and Ryan, if he didn't need fear why do you think he uses jessie and flint to scare people, had he not need people being afraid than he would just reek havoc on his own. Also, Precognition between the two ARE exactly the same ability. The heroine or walkman do not give them their power. They were not getting their visions from each source they simply use them to relax their minds so they can paint it. And everything that Stevehim said i will also stand by, levitation and Telekinesis are similar but not the same as to niki and knox. similar, but not the same. Just cause 2 abilities have the same outcome does not mean that they should be catagorized as the same.--Pbmarcano 15:18, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
            • Well yeah, we should be using the name given in the assignment tracker profile (I'll take care of that now), but I don't see what that has to do with these two people having the same power. Also, I'm not saying Isaac needed heroin or Usutu needs a Walkman to paint the future--I'm positing that if those characters accessed their ability differently, it wouuldn't matter--the abilities are still the same. And I don't think that similar abilities should be categorized together--but we've been told very explicitly that Knox's power is enhanced strength, and we shouldn't mess with that just because Jessica could use her power whenever she wanted, and Knox uses the fears of others. They're not just "similar" powers, they're the same power--but with different characters, different limits, and different ways of accessing the power. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:04, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
            • Let me pose this...If somone was able to interfere with Hiro's ability to travel through space and time, but he still retained the ability to slow time down, would we say he lost his power and was a normal human? In that vein, if someone was able to disrupt the conversion mechanism in Knox (from fear to strength), but unable to stop him from sensing and absorbing the fear in those around him, would we say he lost his ability and was a normal human, or would we say it has become relatively crappy power?  ;) I'm still kinda on the fence on the splitting issue, but the main motivators for me is that not splitting it ignores the fear sensing/absorbing aspect of the power (ie - implies that is not actually a power unless the fear can be turned into strength) and that keeping them together leads to requiring notes when listing them in Peter's exposed/acquired list, as you'd have to have 2 "enhanced strengths" with a note next to one explaining why it's different. While that's not exactly a 'problem,' it does make the list look a bit messier. If we do keep them together with notes, there should also be a page for sensing/absorbing fear in/from others.Stevehim 21:51, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
            • If the page is split, Knox's ability would still be called "enhanced strength". The fear aspect of his ability would still be explained on the page (in the limits and in the notes), not in the name of the power. Unless sensing/absorbing fear in/from others is a separate power from Knox's enhanced strength, there won't be a page about it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:57, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
              • The way i see it, if the people CLEARLY demonstrate the same ability, i.e. Matt and Maury, Nathan and West, Claire and Adam... and so on, THEN i believe they should be categorized as the same ability, but if our trusted canon sources (THE EPISODES NOT THE FREAKING ASSIGNMENT TRACKER) even HINT that the two abilities are not the exact same LIKE NIKI AND KNOX (cause with knox's ability we have been told he "feeds off of fears and turns them into his strength") then they should not be catagorized together, and the poll which has been up has always shown more for the split than against, i dont see the harm in just splitting it until we are proven that knox and niki's ability are EXACTLY THE SAME... sorry i'm getting so into this...--Pbmarcano 21:27, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
                • You seem very angry...I don't think anybody is saying that the powers are exactly the same--even Nathan and West's powers were slightly different. Yes, they both could fly, but they flew differently, according to Joe and Aron. But the question of the powers being the same or different has been argued to death on both sides. I guess we'll just have keep watching the episodes and reading the online content (which yes, is part of the world of Heroes--and a very valuable part, I might add) to find out more.

                  A note about the "poll"--it's not a poll. It's a consensus check. As it stands right now, the input is pretty evenly split, which is hardly consensus to split the page. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:11, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

  • Not worth splitting. His canon power has been named as "Enhanced strength", not "Fear absorbing super strength" or whatever. DismantleRepair 07:43, 4 October 2008 (EDT).
    • This article was originally Super strength and not Enhanced strength. Some people wanted Niki's power to have been left at Super strength and Knox's to have been Enhanced strength as how I explained above. The Shadow 14:43, 4 October 2008 (EDT)

To the Wayback machine

I recall another argument similar to this that we had last year with regard to the electrical powers (Lightning, Electromagnetism, and Electrical absorption) at the Electromagnetism talk page. Might some wisdom from that be applied here? There are parallels between this and that debate: Agent (electromagnetism)|Agent]] could Levitate + shoot electricity, Elle could (as far as we could see) only shoot electricity; ergo, Agent has electromagnetism, a different ability than Elle's. Here: Niki/Jessica (from what we could see) can pull super strength feats at anytime, Knox can sense fear in others + (as he states) TURN that fear into enhanced strength; ergo, different abilities. We should have articles on each. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 20:50, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

  • Maybe it's time to combine those articles. :P--Riddler 22:22, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
    • The electrical powers are a different situation, cause the end result for each ability is different. Being able to sense fear is likely part of Knox knowing when his strength is increased, but the end result is that his strength gets increased like Niki's. A good example is cloning: we know Julien's clones also have a sensory capacity to know when the root is injured, but that doesn't make Julien's cloning a separate ability. In any case, we don't know if the case was similar for Evan's clones or not, just as we don't know whether Niki's ability was influenced at all by other people's fear.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:52, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Actually, the previous debate is strikingly similar, but with electrical absorption and lightning. The kid with the first ability has to absorb the electricity (as well as Ben Franklin), then create lightning. Elle can create it without an acting agent. It's very similar, because Jessica/Niki does not need an acting agent to create the strength; Knox, however, needs this acting agent (fear), which in turn can create strength. Make sense?--Bob (talk) 00:01, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
        • I understand your argument, but I disagree with it. The electrical absorption agent didn't convert anything, he simply absorbed electricity and emitted it. Knox absorbs fear and somehow that empowers him. It's not the same thing, imho. Also, Echo was able to convert Elle's lightning energy into sound, but Echo's ability is still called sound manipulation.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:11, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
          • Converting one ability's action to one's own ability's action, as in Echo's case, is something entirely different, and unrelated to this situation. Knox, as presented, needs the fear to do the enhanced strength, Niki/Jessica, as presented, does not. The fact that Knock needs input, others' fear, to get the output, Enhanced Strengh, implies an entirely different mechanism for his strength versus Niki/Jessica's strength, which has been shown to be just there. The difference in mechanism warrants different articles, no? --SacValleyDweller (talk) 00:36, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
            • I don't see why the "difference in mechanism" would warrant different articles. If Nathan flies by converting wind to energy, and West flied by using the Earth's magnetic fields (or whatever), the powers are still the same. If Knox gets his enhanced strength from the fear of others, and Niki/Jessica just always has her enhanced strength available, they're still the same powers. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:51, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
              • Nicely put, Ryan.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:58, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
              • Valid points, however still think the two abilities are different enough to need separate articles. I smell a stalemate. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 01:02, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
                • I'd give it a few more days, first. Am I correct in assuming that if it's a stalemate, it will remain unsplit? I think Admin had said that was how things would work if there's not a consensus.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:15, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
                  • Assuming it does remain unsplit, how should we address it on Peter's page? He has been exposed to Knox, and so should have his power, but it is currently not listed on either his page or Future Peter's (though the other escapees are listed on Future Peter's under exposed abilities). Since Peter should be able to tell who around him is experiencing fear, even if he's unable to gain any extra strength from this (which seems unlikely), we have missing information on his page(s). Stevehim 05:07, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
                    • Peter has met Niki and has demonstrated enhanced strength (he punched Sylar at Kirby Plaza in How to Stop an Exploding Man). There's nothing to say that if he absorbed Knox's ability that he would necessarily be able to sense fear, only that he had enhanced strength (which he does). But we may never know since it seems that while Peter was trapped in Jesse's body, he did not have access to his former abilities. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 07:09, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
              • At first, Niki's enhanced strength was induced by the split personality disorder, later in the series, she can use it without begin induced. Likewise, Knox's ability is induced by fear - it maybe possible that he can use his ability later without sensing fear. They're just induced by different things. If this article was split, does that mean we need "Heroin-induced precognition" and "Music-induced precognition"? Chrisyu357 06:54, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
                • It would follow...even though Isaac has painted while sober (see Hiro and the Dinosaur), and there's no evidence that Usutu needs the Walkman....But even if those two characters were completely reliant on heroin and music respectively, doesn't it just seem silly to split the page about their shared power, simply because of the way they access their ability? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 07:09, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
                • The idea that Peter would not be able to sense fear because he already has enhanced strength implies that Knox's fear sensing is predicated on him 'feeling stronger' (ie - he only knows Peter is afraid because he feels extra strength). But if that's the case, then how would he know it was coming from Peter/Jesse specifically and not Flint or The German (or, later, the people in the bank)? Stevehim 07:38, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Isn't this similar to the difference between Precognition and Precognitive dreaming, which are split? It seems they are the same essential power with different ways to access that ability. Stevehim 12:45, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
  • I think the main point people are missing the key differences here:
  1. Knox can sense fear as well as having super strength
  2. Knox's strength its determined by the amount of fear he can sense
  3. If Knox was say against Sylar and he wasn't afraid, he would be powerless

His power is 2-fold.(but I do like the way the mods are split over this :) )--Skywalkerrbf 13:03, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

    • Well Put! --SacValleyDweller (talk) 23:47, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
      • I've said my piece before, but I'd like to point out that #3 (If Knox was say against Sylar and he wasn't afraid, he would be powerless) may not be true. We don't know yet what's the max distance he can be from someone's who's afraid, and still absorb their fear. We also don't know whether he can harness his own fear.--MiamiVolts (talk) 23:55, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
  • I know I'm just restating things already said, but these are the main issues as I see them. If they can be sufficiently addressed, I'd hope the fence and switch votes. ;)
  1. If the fear sensing isn't separate, how would Knox know where it's coming from specifically?
  2. How is this different than the distinction between Precognition and Precognitive Dreaming?


Stevehim 01:03, 4 October 2008 (EDT)

    1. One possibility is directional sensing (if a person to the right of him is fearful, he feels strength more on his right side than on his left). In normal humans, we use directional feeling for various purposes such as to tell which way the wind is blowing when we can't see it, or to feel ourselves through a twisting hallway in the dark.
    2. It's two different environments so the end result can be different... In precognition, you're always awake and you witness what happens but can't interact with what you see virtually. However, you can interact with the physical world (this lets Isaac, Peter and Usutu paint while having a vision). In precognitive dreaming, you are either daydreaming or out cold. You can't interact with the physical world while dreaming, but it is possible to interact with the dream as Peter/Charles is able to do (Angela's demonstrated use of the power thus far has just been to watch).--MiamiVolts (talk) 04:02, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
      1. Possible, but I don't think we can say for sure that that's the case yet. Also, it would imply that he feels every little bit of added strength, as he has a bank full of people powering him up and is still able to tell The German is scared.
      2. Well, I'm not sure I'd say the precogs are able to interact with the physical world, as all they can do is paint/draw, and nothing else (not even respond to questions). So while that is technically interaction, it is more the form their precognition takes. Since they are effectively in a trance, it's essentially the same as daydreaming or sleeping. We have seen interaction with the physical world while in dreams, though perhaps not precognitive ones. Piper has the glasses that Sanjog gives her in her dream on when she awakes. Matt and Nathan fight while being caugt in Maury's 'nightmare.' And we could pose something similar for Niki and Knox being in two different environments, as one is constantly changing (ie - Knox's environmental interaction changes in direct proportion to the fear around him) while the other is stagnant (Niki's relative strength is constant regardless of the environment she's in). I realize this is a somewhat awkward analogy, but it really does seem to me that they can both be described as we have above for the enhanced strength...different ways to access seeing into the future.
    • On a side note, I'm surprised Knox wasn't able to break out of the straight jacket. I would think there would be a lot of fear on Level 5.  ;) Stevehim 06:06, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
  • It was confirmed in last night's episode that Knox would not have Super Strength if no one is afraid. I wouldn't mind if there was a new article called: Enhanced Strength (Knox) if at all possible to reflect its difference. --Dman dustin 06:07, 7 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Good point. I still think the fact that he continually mentions the ability to detect fear in and of itself would be an ability if he didn't have strength fueled by it. If he could feel/smell fear, then that would be a power. It's a very distinct ability, and it comes from an ability that I believe is not the same thing. --Bob (talk) 23:54, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

The ol' consensus check.

Split

  1. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 19:17, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  2. --Stevehim 19:55, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  3. --Pbmarcano 22:06, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  4. --Jason Garrick 22:54, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  5. --Bob (talk) 23:08, 30 September 2008 (EDT) Niki's ability as "super strength" per Micah, Knox's ability as "enhanced strength" per AT.
  6. ----ERROR 16:56, 1 June 2009 (EDT) I agree, though I don't like the name, "super strength."
  7. --The Shadow 15:26, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
  8. --Henryp 16:41, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
  9. --Skywalkerrbf 05:17, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
  10. --Josh (talk/contribs) 13:23, 3 October 2008 (EDT) - Enhanced strength "converts ambient emotions into enhanced strength." Niki has never been shown to do this.
  11. --Psilaq Remake 15:44, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
  12. --Referos 14:36, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
  13. --Hiimluke 23:26, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
  14. --Mordred 13:45, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
  15. --TheEvilNoob 19:19, 11 October 2008 (EDT) Niki's ability was never called "Enhanced Strength."
  16. --Intuitive Empath 20:38, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
  17. --Sad crescentmoon12 16:49, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
  18. --Radicell 22:42, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
  19. --Yamawhata? 16:26, 25 October 2008 (EDT) Hey, we set the precedent with the electrical ones. We gotta lay in the bed we made.
  20. --Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 23:07, 28 October 2008 (EDT) Perhaps "Enhanced strength by fear"? It doesn't have to be radically different, but I do think they should be split.
  21. --BlueRavenBoy 22:14, 29 October 2008 (EDT) We need to split, he needs fuel, Niki didn't. His power is still evolving, (see post below regarding more than just physical) Niki is dead.
  22. --Titan3510 12:29, 11 November 2008 (EST) How can you combine two different things into one article? You can't. You can connect them together with a link but otherwise, a split is needed. I can suggest enhanced strength for Knox and super strength for Niki and Michael. You guys want to keep this encylopedia as clean, as credible and as canon as possible. Here's your chance.
  23. --Datnymonster 20:20, 27 December 2008 (EDT) we could call it Ambient strength.
  24. --Tristan0709 03:38, 30 December 2008 (EST) If these are together, then by theory Poison emission and Chlorine gas exudation should go together too.
  25. --Max G. (T) 01:29, 4 January 2009 (EST) There is a large difference in function
  26. --IceGhost78
  27. --Bosco13 23rd March 2009 Its a different ability
  28. -- By Danko CH 16:59, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
  29. --Boom D  9,992  18:44, 1 June 2009 (EDT) agree with Tristan.

Don't Split

  1. --Piemanmoo 19:21, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  2. --MiamiVolts (talk) 19:23, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
  3. --Ted C 16:09, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
  4. --RyanGibsonStewart (talk)
  5. --SPARTAN-077 19:10, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
  6. --Riddler 21:54, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
  7. --Chrisyu357 06:54, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
  8. --Therequiembellishere 22:48, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
  9. --Darmenos 22:40, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
  10. --DismantleRepair 07:43, 4 October 2008 (EDT). Not worth splitting. His canon power has been named as "Enhanced strength", not "Fear absorbing super strength" or whatever.
  11. --Matchu 15:55, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
  12. ----HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 11/25/2008 11:54 (EST)

5 days since last vote

Can we split it already?--Skywalkerrbf 12:09, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

  • There is no consensus for a split. It's also not a vote, it's a poll. (Admin 14:31, 9 October 2008 (EDT))
  • Quite frankly, I don't see how anyone can call these 2 abilities the same. It's like Empathic mimicry vs. Intuitive aptitude to me. They can be used to do the absorb powers, although they are accessed differently. In a similar way, Niki just does it and Knox must absorb the fear from a person. Psilaq Remake 15:31, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
    • If you don't see how anyone can call these Knox's ability and Jessica's ability the same, then you might not understand the power. They both are able to have enhanced strength, but they get it from different places. Knox's assignment tracker doesn't call the ability "fear absorption" or "fear-based strength" or "fear-" anything. It's simply enhanced strength. That's what Jessica had, too. It's like the fact that my wife prefers Pepsi and I prefer Coke, but we both drink cola. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:41, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
      • To be fair, I don't think it's as clear-cut as that. One of the two main arguments (the other being a matter of consistency with regards to other splits/non-splits) seems to be whether his ability to detect fear is a power or an effect of gaining strength (I still think it's the former...the deep breathing indicates, to me, that he doesn't automatically convert the fear, and even his current description on this page reads as having a fear-detecting power). That said, there's clearly no consensus one way or the other, so the pages should remain as they are unless we get more info. Has anyone sent this to CBR yet? Stevehim 15:52, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
        • RGS, I disagree with you but wouldn't the assaignment tracker be NEAR canon and not canon... the thing says canon is episodes and near canon is heroes evolutions... But since precog, and precognitive dreaming have the same effect, intuitive aptitude and empathic mimicry have the same effect, telepathy and persuasion have similar effects, i do not believe that just because the two have the same outcome it means they still have the same ability no matter what the near canon source says. those have been proven wrong before (like when an interview said that peter petrelli could only use one ability at a time)--Hiimluke 23:32, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
          • Knox's assignment tracker profile was shown on the show, not Heroes Evolutions. - Josh (talk/contribs) 23:47, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
    • My fellow peeps of the Heroes Wiki, you must ask yourself this question, can Niki sense other's fear? Knox not only can sense it but he is a master of it and can tell even the slightest bit of fear, as evidenced in I Am Become Death. Therefore they are different. TheEvilNoob 19:21, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
      • You may as well call it "Fear Strength" then =/ --Matchu 19:24, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
        • Let's do that then, after all, canon first in the Heroes Wiki, amiriteTheEvilNoob 19:33, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
          • URRITE:d:d Actually, on a serious note, "Induced Strength" sounds better and plausible. --Matchu 19:38, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
            • I agree with that bro, sounds good to me TheEvilNoob 19:46, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
              • It doesn't matter how many people agree on a non-canon name. We will only be using canon sources for names of abilities, as per our naming conventions. Knox's assignment tracker profile (which appeared in The Butterfly Effect) explicitly listed Knox's power as "enhanced strength". We will use that name. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 09:42, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
                • And the only time Niki's ability was referred to in the show, they called it "Super Strength." I saw someone's argument that the Company's knowledge overrules Micah's comic book knowledge, but the company never referred to Niki's ability as enhanced strength. TheEvilNoob 16:18, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
                  • Why cant it just be "Enhanced" for Knox (he ENHANCES it by absorbing fear) and "super" for Niki? Psilaq Remake 16:28, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
                    • This is the argument I made when we first learned of Knox's ability. The argument lies in debating whether they are actually two different abilities. I personally think they are, and we can use canon sources to name both of them (super strength for Niki, enhanced strength for Knox), but the debate lies in whether the two are actually different abilities. See above.--Bob (talk) 16:40, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
                      • Precognition and precognitive dreaming end up doing the same thing, but by different means, and those two powers have separated pages, as well as the numerous electricity related ones, so why keep these two abilities in the same article? There's already a reasonable explanation for the difference between the two ("super" is super no matter what and "enhanced" is only when there's the fear to enhance it, strength may vary in this case) so the most logical thing to do based on how previous powers where handled, would be to split the article. Intuitive Empath 20:37, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
                • First-time poster here, so I'm probably doing this wrong, but: I've always liked the way powers are named here, but I can't follow the reasoning on this one. The naming conventions state Bennet's description that Knox can "absorb a person's fear and turn it into his own strength" is as canon as the text of the assignment tracker in the background (second point under the guidelines for derived names subtitle), but then goes on to say the best name should encompass all of the power's aspects (fourth/fifth point in the same section) - and the descriptive names section reinforces this with suggestions to avoid an 'underbroad' description. In my opinion Bennet's description covers Knox's ability a lot more aptly than the tracker, which doesn't cover the fact he can both sense fear (apparently even its source(s)) and convert it into strength (as Gabriel states in I Am Become Death and as is suggested by Knox's mirror-lined holding cell, if no one around him is fearful, he's effectively powerless). Basically this case seems to me cognate with Bennet bringing up an assignment tracker page calling Hiro's power 'Teleportation', and then turning to Claire and saying, "This guy can manipulate space and time" - 'Space-Time Manipulation' would surely be preferred, so what's the difference here? If the 'enhanced' part of the name is considered to cover the fact the strength is converted from fear, surely the same does not apply for Niki...? -- Mnemosyne 07:43, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
                  • No problem, you certainly brought up valid points. Yes, in theory, a name such as "Fear conversion" based on Mr. Bennet's comment would take precedence over "Enhanced strength", since Bennet's naming covers all the aspects of Knox's ability. But there's a small but: when we are given really explicit names, they always take precedence, no matter what. For instance, when Donna's power was named "telescopic vision", we rejected it initially because it didn't cover the "nocturnal vision" aspect of her ability. However, the name "telescopic vision" was constantly repeated, until it appeared explicitly in the Assignment Tracker, so we called Donna's power that way. Since "enhanced strength" was explicitly named, we stick to it, unless someone in the show says something like "Look, it's Knox! He has the ability of fear conversion!".--Referos 16:59, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
                    • Correct. Bennet's line is descriptive, whereas the AT names it. Both appear in an episode, so they are the same level of canon, so if you rank the two aside from the fact they're in an episode, "enhanced strength" trumps Bennet's line because it explicitly names the ability. I agree that Knox's ability to absorb fear is what differentiates it from Niki's ability, but there are a lot of people who think that the fact that their strength is similar that the two abilities are the same. But for me, enhanced strength is fine in naming Knox's ability because his strength is enhanced by other people's fear. --Bob (talk) 17:10, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
                      • That's big of you to defend the name, Bob--I know you're not a big fan of it. Personally, I would have loved it if the AT said something about "fear absorption," or "fear induced enhanced strength," or even "feeding off scaredy pants". But bottom line, the Company is an in-world "expert" with abilities (just like Mohinder is), and if they name the power, we use the same name. It's not about what we want, it's about documenting what's given to us, plain and simple. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:31, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
                      • Even if we stick to the name the Company gave to Knox's ability, it doesn't automatically mean we have to use the same name for Niki's ability. The Company never gave any name to this one. So we can use "Super strenght" for Niki/Jessica's ability and "Enhanced strenght for Knox's one. --Mordred
                    • Ah, thanks for the clarification. One more query: In the case of Telescopic Vision, it's still described as also being able to see in the dark... doesn't that mean the description for Enhanced Strength, which has only been canonically used to describe Knox so far, should cover the fear-converting aspect? Echoing Mordred, similarly Niki's power has best been described as "super strength" according to the naming conventions, because the words "enhanced strength" haven't been attributed to her at all, and as far as the AT seems to be concerned, "enhanced strength" must mean "converting strength from fear". Or do we have to accept the name as the sole descriptor (which seems to be the reason Niki's assigned to the power name), meaning Donna's ability's description might need tweaking? -- Mnemosyne 22:43, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
  • I can't till Pinehearst has their own assignment tracker or some sort of files that will totally screw up our naming convention if they name every character differently. lol--Pbmarcano 23:46, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I always welcome new information, even if it means we redesign how we do things here! :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:41, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Technically, telescopic vision is a correct description, since that some animals which are capable of seeing in the dark, such as cats, do it by having a more focused vision, by focusing more of the little dispersed light, they are able to form better images. Anyway, I still hold my previous argument. Intuitive Empath 15:05, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Specify Synthetic or not

It might help to specify if the person(s) holding an ability received it synthetically or not, since it can tell people that the ability CAN be given synthetically. Or perhaps it could be another category, i.e. something like "Held by: *Character*, Synthetically given to: *Character*, Absorbed by: *Character* --Aburu 01:02, October 14, 2008

  • I would recommend it not go in any infoboxes since they're meant to provide concise information and whether an ability is natural or synthetic isn't that critical in the end. I personally wouldn't mind if it were in the body of the article (it looks like it's already there). (Admin 01:08, 14 October 2008 (EDT))
    • True. I'm not sure how it is for others, but I usually look to the infobox for information on who has the power, so that might be one reason to put it there. I guess we'll just have to wait and see just how critical the difference becomes, if it even does. --Aburu 01:11, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Why not end it now?

  • I don't see why we don't just end this charade and go by canon... Niki's ability being Super Strength, Knox's being enhances strength.... TheEvilNoob 21:00, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Because there's no agreement that the two are different ability. Trust me, I want to split it too and go with these names, but there's no clear agreement.--Bob (talk) 21:14, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
      • But we took a poll TheEvilNoob 17:19, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
        • Right, and there was no clear consensus in the poll. This is not a case of majority wins.--MiamiVolts (talk) 18:05, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
          • 16-11 very clear hohoho TheEvilNoob 16:46, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
            • Consensus is a general agreement among a group. 16 people feeling one way and 11 people feeling another is very clear about one thing--that there is no consensus. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:09, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
            • Well, know it's 19-11, which I believe is about 65% for, 35% against. Not sure how great the difference has to be to be considered a consensus, but IMO, its getting close.
              • I wouldn't know anything, but I would think that a consensus would have to be higher than 90% or more... Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 20:32, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
                • Thrashmeister is correct. Admin gets to decide what consensus is, and according to him, it is not just a poll. It's very close to a 100% or nothing deal. It matters only whether or not all (100%) reasonable opinions voiced agree. It could be 99 to 1 and not be consensus per Admin's definition, so long as that 1 person voices a reasonable opinion.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:45, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
                  • Come on! Whatever happened to majority rule?! It's harder to change things here (for the better) than it is in Congress. And we all know how difficult that is.Titan3510 11:33, 25 November 2008 (EST)

Arguments redux

Just so refresh things, are these the arguments for and against the split? --SacValleyDweller (talk) 00:12, 25 October 2008 (EDT)

  1. Do not split: Where the strength comes from and the mechanisms of Knox and Niki's powers do not matter. The effect is that the strength in the two individuals is more than that of a normal person. No need to split.
  2. Split: The fact that Knox can sense fear and convert it to strength and Niki needed no such stimulus to use her power indicates that the mechanisms for their abilities are different. Because the mechanism are different, the abilities must be different. They need to be split.

Knox, more than physical strength?

I believe that when Knox absorbs fear he gains more than physical strength. Examples are: When Matt was holding him with his mind Knox was able to break out due to Daphne's fear. I don't think it is possible to physically escape from mental paralysis. He must gain strength in general not just, super strength. In addition when Daphne runs away in the same scene, he is able to close-line her. Daphne is super-fast and their for has super fast reaction times, if she was running at her speed and Knox started to move his arm to hit her it would be like him doing it in slow motion to her. Whether it is that he is just so strong that he can move his arm wicked fast or that his fear absorption does more than just strength is still a mystery. I think, in addition to updating the page, this could be more reason for a split. I don't think there was any evidence of Niki or Peter being able to break out of mental traps with super strength. --BlueRavenBoy 18:56, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

  • All an illusion, placed in Knox's head by Matt. Ricard Desi 19:58, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
    • True, but if his power was different than normal in the illusion Knox would have noticed. Matt had to make the illusion seem real in every way, including how his power acted.--BlueRavenBoy 20:50, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Perhaps Knox has never had to attack someone with super speed. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 20:53, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
        • He doesn't need to attack someone with super speed to know his limits. If his reflexes get improved as he smells fear, he would know that. So i think it is safe to assume that he gains not only enhanced strength but also super fast reflexes. When he was attacking "The German" he was pretty fast as well.--Hellknight 21:15, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
          • This doesn't explain how he counter-acts Matt's power.--BlueRavenBoy 21:34, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
            • Wait, was Matt literally holding Knox with his mind? Or did he command Knox to stop and Knox had to listen? Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 21:36, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
              • I'm not sure, but I remember Matt saying something about going into his head and then Knox said, "No power can hold me!" Suggesting he could overcome telekinesis if he had fuel.--BlueRavenBoy 21:38, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
                • I think he never tried to kill Knox and he just said that to make his illusion realistic. Killing Knox solves nothing but now he tricked Pinehearst that they think Matt and Daphne dead. At least Matt thinks so... --Hellknight 21:41, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
                • Hmmm... okay, well... maybe in addition to enhanced physical strength, Knox has enhanced mental strength as well? It obviously wasn't telekinesis, which is capable of immobilizing people on an external/physical level... but Matt's telepathic commands are capable of immobilizing people on an internal/mental level. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 21:43, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
                  • So doesn't mean his power is ultimately different than Niki's? Niki couldn't over come mental powers with her strength. It was purely physical. His overcoming of Parkman's telepathy prove his power is different! It also means he could potentially be resistant to damage if he is fueled--BlueRavenBoy 21:50, 29 October 2008 (EDT) enough.
                    • Unless I'm mistaken, Niki never had to deal with a telepath. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 21:52, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
                      • "Later, Niki is plagued by visions of D.L., caused by Maury who is manipulating her mind with his telepathic powers." --BlueRavenBoy 21:55, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
                        • Telepathic illusions are different from telepathic commands. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 21:56, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
  • I don't agree with the split/don't split arguements at all. My aspect on it is that much like Brendan Lewis, two powers should be listed. The first being Enhanced Strength, the second being something with a catchier name than I can come up with at the moment, which would be something around the lines of "Fear Detection/Harnessing". I'm not sure, just my opinion. But in that one you could list examples of Knox sensing fear or harnessing fear for fuel to his strength. Kortu 21:10, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Knox probably hasn't gone up against someone with advanced telepathy like Matt yet. Knox was acting confidently... he felt sure he could break Matt's hold on him. In the vision Matt gave him he was able to break out. Matt wasn't trying to hold him there indefinitely, he was trying to let Knox believe he had beaten Matt so he would leave. There isn't any evidence that he could actually break free had Matt not wanted him, too. It was all a trick. (Admin 21:59, 29 October 2008 (EDT))
    • We can't assume just because it was a trick that Matt let him out, he had to off known he could break out or he wouldn't of gone to fight Matt if he knew he couldn't win. --BlueRavenBoy 22:03, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
      • If Matt finished Knox off, then Pinehearst would probably just send more people to kill Matt. Matt wanted to be left alone, so he let Knox think he killed them. That's my take on it, anyway. --Ice Vision (talk) 22:06, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
        • He didn't win. :) He didn't know. (Admin 22:06, 29 October 2008 (EDT))
          • Yes he didn't but he thought he did, Matt illusion had to make him think he could win, he would know something was up if his power was acting different. He broke out of Matt's hold on him under his own power, Matt may not of been using his full strength but Knox still believe he won, if he couldn't over come mental powers before and then did there he would know something was wrong--BlueRavenBoy 22:10, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
            • It doesn't matter. The point is he didn't use some method to break free of Matt's telepathic control so anything implying that he can is purely speculative. You can include it on the theories page, but that's it. (Admin 22:13, 29 October 2008 (EDT))
              • Then should this passage, "Knox can also become strong enough to resist the physically immobilizing telepathic commands of Matt (Eris Quod Sum). " be removed? Also I still think we should add something about improved reflexes, something Niki didn't display.
                • You're right, that passage shouldn't have been there. I just took it out. (Admin 22:21, 29 October 2008 (EDT))
                • Yup, I agree. I'm sorry about that; I was the one who added that in there. I was a bit fuzzy on all of the details on whether or not illusion Matt was actually trying to telepathically hold Knox. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 22:22, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
                  • And what about something about his reflexes?--BlueRavenBoy 22:36, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
                    • What about it? We haven't seen him using any advanced reflexes. Ricard Desi 16:17, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
                    • Yes we have, close lining Daphne. --BlueRavenBoy 19:27, 17 November 2008 (EST)
                      • It was just an illusion by Matt. Matt made Knox think he had killed them both. It never happened, thus, no confirmation on reflexes. Psilaq Remake 19:41, 26 November 2008 (EST)

Heroes Interactive

The Heroes Interactive for Eris Quod Sum asked "What is Knox's ability?" The answer was "enhanced strength". They then added "Knox's strength feeds off fear." That's pretty much how I see it--his ability is the same as Jessica/Niki's: enhanced strength. He gets his strength, though, by feeding off the fear of others. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:29, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

  • His AT is out, it explicitly says his ability is enhanced strenght and it says that there are no known individuals with similar abilities, like it was the case with Hana and Drucker, Matt and Maury, Charlie and Matt. Does this mean that his ability and Niki's are different enough for us to split the article? To make things harder, the latest graphic novel introduced yet another character with what Sylar called enhanced strength, but it has nothing to do with fear, works more like Niki's strength, but has the glow effect on eyes and tattoos. So what do we do? Intuitive Empath 19:47, 4 November 2008 (EST)
    • I've never read the "unique ability" as meaning the subject is the only one with the ability--I've always thought that "unique" was defined in this case as "being the only one", meaning this is the only ability the subject has. And the section that says "known persons exhibiting similar abilities," there are so many cases where this section is not filled out that I always assumed it was because the ability is the same. It's true--I don't know anybody with a similar ability to Knox, but I know several people with the same ability (like Niki and Michael Fitzgerald, both of whom are known to the Company). I chuckled when I read the novel today with its accompanying assignment tracker profile--I almost got the feeling that the writers were trying to broaden the definition of "enhanced strength" to include people who do things beyond what Niki ever did. Presented with the evidence, it seems to me that the writers define "enhanced strength" in the world of Heroes as being fueled by ambient emotions or as a power that somehow makes your eyes glow. It's almost as though they are purposely trying to expand the meaning of the power's name. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:12, 4 November 2008 (EST)
      • Unique ability meaning the only one a person has is kinda flawed, remember how Lewis had plant manipulation and regeneration as an unique ability? Intuitive Empath 20:15, 4 November 2008 (EST)
        • I never took much issue with that. The field in the data box says "unique ability" in the singular. I just assumed that they couldn't switch it to be plural and say "unique abilities," which would be correct: those are the only abilities that Lewis has. But that's just a quibble. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:29, 4 November 2008 (EST)
      • Just to throw in my two cents (and perhaps stir the hornets nest some more  ;)). The lack of listing anyone in the 'persons with similar abilities' section on Knox's assignment tracker, to me, indicates one of two things. Either he is the only one the Company knows of with enhanced strength, or the assignment tracker isn't as updated/reliable as we have assumed (I lean towards the latter). The argument that it is blank because it lists people with similar abilities and not those with the same ability doesn't work, because Maury is listed on Matt's assignment tracker in that section, Flint on Meredith's (and vice versa), and Echo on Jesse's and we know each pairing the same ability, not simply a similar one.
As for the Niki/Knox specific issue, aside from this evidence that they have different abilities, they should have never been merged in the first place. As far as I can tell, the only evidence that Niki has 'enhanced' strength is that we decided 'enhanced' and 'super' mean the same thing, which they most certainly do not. Based on that (and, afaik, that alone), we moved down a level of canonicity in our naming conventions (super strength for Niki was canon). Of course, this has already been discussed and decided upon, but I'm not sure that specific point was brought up. --Stevehim 19:07, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Niki(Jessica) and Knox strength-ability compared

OK, we know that Knox's strength only manifests when Fear is involved. (We haven't seen him just casually do any feats of strength where fear isn't involved right?). What if Niki/Jessica's strength is exactly the same. However, her emotional trigger isn't fear but rather anger. I can't remember anytime that Niki/Jessica have done a feat of strength that wasn't in some way motivated by anger. So what if the power of strength that they both share, is just emotionally driven, and they each drive it off of two different emotions (fear/anger)? --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 11/25/2008 12:01 (EST)

  • Does anyone think that it is weird that if Niki had the same power as Knox that it would say so in Knox's AT that Niki Sanders was a person who has the same ability? It's a given that the Company knows about her and her ability. Taking this into account why do we have them as having the same power. What is the problem with Niki having super strength because she is super strong all the time as far as we know and Knox has enhanced strength because he "enhances" his strength with fear.--Iceman 09:16, 4 December 2008 (EST)