Talk:Enhanced strength/Archive 2

From Heroes Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search
Archive.jpg WARNING: Talk:Enhanced strength/Archive 2 is an archive of past messages. New messages should be added to Talk:Enhanced strength. Archive.jpg

Including Sylar and Mohinder

I think Sylar should be included on this page. He has shown feats that would require strength beyond a normal human's ability. Punching through the cab window and wielding the parking meter as a weapon (initially in one hand) would not be possible without some kind of power at work. We define it as 'the ability to exert greater than normal physical force,' which would apply even if he was using his telekinesis to supplement his strength (but we don't know that he was, and so all we truly know is that he was able to accomplish those feats, which would require greater than normal strength). --Stevehim 22:54, 13 December 2008 (EST)

  • Nope, totally disagree. Assuming that he has this ability is just as speculative as assuming that he can fly when he sneaks up on Dale Smither. Unless it's confirmed, or unless we see him stealing the power from somebody who already has the power, we won't add him here. Nor will we add Mohinder to this page because he is really strong, or Noah to enhanced memory because he can remember things really well, or Lyle to rapid cell regeneration because he can heal from a paper cut. I'm exaggerating, of course, but until it's confirmed, it's not a power. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:00, 13 December 2008 (EST)
    • I disagree, especially about Mohinder. On his ability page, we list an aspect of his power as enhanced strength. Additionally, why would this be any different from listing Santiago and Edward on the super speed page? --Stevehim 23:09, 13 December 2008 (EST)
      • We shouldn't be listing the ability called enhanced strength on Mohinder's page. I think perhaps a note is all that is warranted--there are aspects of Mohinder's ability that are similar to this ability, but they are not the same ability. Santiago was revealed to have two abilities--his Create Your Hero profile said so, and a BTE confirmed that the power of super speed is a byproduct of his accelerated probability. No such confirmation has been given for Mohinder that I know of. If there is, then we can certainly add his name to the page. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:22, 13 December 2008 (EST)
        • How is that different from listing Niki and Knox as having the same ability? - Josh (talk/contribs) 23:50, 13 December 2008 (EST)
          • This page is not about feats of strength. It's about an evolved human ability that has been called "enhanced strength". Niki and Knox have the same ability, which they access in different ways. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:41, 14 December 2008 (EST)
            • When was Niki's ability called enhanced strength? When were Niki and Knox said to have the same ability? - Josh (talk/contribs) 00:53, 14 December 2008 (EST)
              • Niki Sanders, like Knox, has an ability that allows her to be stronger than a normal human would be. Thus, their powers both take the name of Knox's: enhanced strength. --Ricard Desi 13:04, 14 December 2008 (EST)
        • The way I read the BTE interview was that Santiago's speed is a byproduct of his accelerated probability. Much the same can be said about Mohinder's ability (that enhanced strength is a byproduct of his ability). Additionally, it's currently more of an assumption, imo, to grant Scott this ability, based on his actions. For all we know, his strength was a byproduct of another ability as well, as it wasn't named (iirc). We also assumed that Future Peter's comment about erasing memories was enough evidence to give him mental manipulation, even though we know he already had a power that could accomplish the same thing (telepathy...was used by Arthur to erase Angela's memories). For now, however, I'll leave it in the notes section, and await responses on what to do about rewording Mohinder's ability. --Stevehim 00:14, 14 December 2008 (EST)
  • I agree with Stevehim. we're listing electric manipulation as a byproduct of accelerated probability page on account of Edward, despite the fact that the effects are different and the abilities are even less related. according to that precedent, Mohinder should be listed here in the same manner. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 02:32, 14 December 2008 (EST)
    • Frankly, I think that all these by-products will cause the Wiki to explode by the time we reach Season 5 if the writers continue to mix up abilities.--Referos 12:32, 14 December 2008 (EST)
    • Edward should never have had his ability listed as electric manipulation unless we had confirmation that that ability is, or can be, a byproduct of accelerated probability, or whatever his ability is. Personally, I think we should do like we always do, and call his ability by one name, unless we learn otherwise. We would never think to say the Haitian has three abilities, or one ability with byproducts, even though he can erase memories, block abilities, and knock people unconscious with the touch of his hand. We would never list Hiro as having three abilities, or one ability with byproducts, even though he can stop time, time travel, and teleport. Ultimately, this page is not about feats of superhuman strength. It's about an ability that has been called "enhanced strength" and "super strength". Adrenaline can make people do things that are amazing--mothers have lifted cars to save their children, and people have punched through cab windows when angry. That does not mean they have this ability. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:28, 14 December 2008 (EST)
      • That's fine, but then I think it would have to apply to Scott as well. Why are we assuming he has this ability based on his act of strength, if we're not willing to do the same for the others? --Stevehim 17:10, 14 December 2008 (EST)
        • That sounds reasonable. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:59, 14 December 2008 (EST)
        • For one, the sudden burst of strength was an immediate effect, right after being injected. On top of that, he never presented any other kinds of abilities, whereas Mohinder and Sylar both did. --Ricard Desi 13:41, 16 December 2008 (EST)
        • Well there have been many varations to this power, so by their may be a version of the power driven by some sort of Telekinesis, like Knox's was by fear. Meaning that Sylar managed to actuate that aspect of it and use it to enhance his own strength, so he could be under that list of people with this power. As for Mohinder, his power advances all of his phisical and mental atributes, meaning that he too has a form of strength making him another that could be listed. Halfbred1426

Other forms

Every person that has this power has had their own mechanics to it: Niki, Knox, Michael and Scott have all been given different aspects with the manifestation of this one power. Even Sylar ambiguously had way back in season 1. Mohinder's strength came as a result from his power of Enhanced Physicality or Mohinder's ability as it is called. What this is about is coming up with other suggestions to how this power may differ if another has it, so please come up with your own versions of Enhanced strength. Marcus

  • What if there was somebody that took the energy of the environment around them to fuel their own Strength, making entire buildings loose power and heat, momentarily, when ever he or she used their power. Or also draining huge amounts of power from someone like Elle or Ando, giving him or her their strength form months at an end, which means that it would get quite cold when ever he used it or drained power.
  • Perhaps Michael Fitzgerald's strength is produced by an energy that body generates and since tattoos have metals in them become partly charged making them glow, the source of any power is in the brain, so his optic nerves transfer an amount of the energy from it making his eyes glow. I honestly think that his strength is drawn from the energy he produces.

Ooh! How about drunken boxing from that one Chinese movie? Or perhaps that one adrenaline rush ability from the Fan powers article?

Please sign your posts, mystery posters.--ERROR 16:51, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

can we change the main image to...

Powers niki smashes mohinder.jpg

I think that this picture will look much better, then Niki (as Jessica) holding her Father up agaist a wall. It doesn't really show that the power is "super strength" alot of people could pin someone up agaist a wall. Anyone else agree or disagree? Samstorey 11:13, 1 January 2009

  • Please sign your posts. Also, the picture you show here seems more ambiguous than the one currently on the page. While on the page, she is clearly holding up a large man by the neck with one hand, in this picture, it could just as easily be telekinesis. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 18:40, 1 January 2009 (EST)
    • I like the, um, foreground of the picture above. :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:15, 1 January 2009 (EST)
      • If the picture is to be changed, it should be the one of her holding bob up, since you can see his feet aren't touching the ground. Or, one of Knox, since he was the more recent focus of the ability.--Riddler 01:38, 4 January 2009 (EST)
        • Don't you think that the one of Bob is abit to far away? And I don't think we should use one of Knox, he never did anything that good except punch a few people.--User:Samstorey 19:37, 4 January 2009
          • And stick his hand through a body and then solid metal... :P --IotV 19:42, 4 January 2009 (GMT)
            • There's always Knox bending the iron bar. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 15:50, 4 January 2009 (EST)
  • My two cents is that I prefer the image we have to either the one above or any of Knox. --Stevehim 16:53, 4 January 2009 (EST)
  • What if we change the picture to this picture. It shows how strong he is instead of Nikki holding her father.
    • I think I might speak for a lot of people, but I don't feel that any main power image change is necessary, other than the Clairsentience one, but that's for another talk page. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:43, 21 January 2009 (EST)
      • ...and my 2 cents think we should keep it the same...Hal's a big guy, and most people who see the image understand the idea of a woman pinning a guy up against a wall has to be pretty strong--Anthony Gooch 02:21, 1 March 2009 (EST)
        • I agree, AG. I think the image we have now is fine. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 02:50, 1 March 2009 (EST)

Why doesn't someone get a picture of Jessica when she holds Bob up against the wall because there's a shot there where you can see her holding him with only one hand and he is lifted several feet off the ground. Can't remember the episode though. Sometime in season 2. --Mc hammark 16:49, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

          • This is the picture I was talking about, can we change it to that because it is more obvious than the one that we have just now. Powers niki chokes bob.jpg --mc_hammark 16:19, 29 August 2009 (EDT)
  • I agree. This is a lot more obvious. The one we have now makes it look he is still on his feet.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 16:25, 29 August 2009 (EDT)
    • I'll leave it a day and as long as no-one has any objections I'll change it. --mc_hammark 16:26, 29 August 2009 (EDT)
      • Good image, but I think it would be better if there was less "white space", so to speak, there's too much of the background of the image, maybe if someone crops the image, putting Niki and Bob more in focus. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 11:20, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
        • I've just uploaded a cropped one. Here. Niki Chokes Bob.jpg Is this one ok? --mc_hammark 14:29, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
          • I think it needs to be 450x350.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 14:37, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
  • What do you mean 450x350? --mc_hammark 14:40, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
    • the width and height. Like if you click on the first image you put on there, the full one, right below the image you will see the image file name, then in parenthesis, 450x350 pixel.....and so on. That's the size it needs to be.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 14:45, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
      • Well, ok then, if we can't use that one can we at least use another one other than the one just now; it really just looks like he's taller than her and she's choking him. How about This one?--mc_hammark 14:57, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
        Powers jessica throws matt.jpg

Potentially Common

It seems that there are only two that naturally have this power, more so is it that they had differing versions of this power. Both Knox and Michael Fitzgerald had two separate and individual kinds of the ability, while Scott and Mohinder had the power without any extra needs or advantages. Niki was able to actuate her strength, only for it to cause a Jekyll and Hide affect on her mind and personality. Why I am saying this is because, Nikki, Mohinder and Scott were all Synthetics, in terms of the abilities' sources. In the changed future, many people seemed to have the/share the same or very similar powers, such as Flight. In this set future certain abilities were very common, possibly due to the fact that they could be - in terms of genetics - more like blood types. Some being common, others being rare, making it likely that if the Serum was given to a group of one thousand people, than a higher number of them would gain Flight, Super speed and, hopefully, Enhanced strength. And I wonder what other advantages natural borns would have along with the enhanced strength? -- Halfbreed1426

What speculations? Also, I edited your post, so tell me if I made an error.--ERROR 14:01, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

when was nickis power called enhanced strength

hers isnt canon

Peter's power in Orientation

This is his power from Orientation. During his talk with Noah he specificly mentions the enhanced strength helping him, says "thank you Doctor Suresh" and says its a pretty useful power. Also, remember in A Clear in Present Danger when he said he wished he was stronger and faster??? Well it makes sense he took stronger as its very useful and plus until he encountered Edgar, the only known person with super-speed was dead.--WarGrowlmon18 19:11, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

Why?

I'm sorry if this has been stated before, but Niki, Mohinder and random soldier man all got enhanced strength from the genetic modification formula. I understand that this is supposedly a common ability for people to manifest once given the formula, but it just seems somewhat unprofessional for the writers to use the same power three times. --PJDEP 17:56, 11 November 2009 (EST)

  • I think that they're just trying to make it more realistic. If people did have abilities I'm sure people would have the same ones. And not everyone just has a completely different ability. Otherwise they just didn't want to spend extra money on special effects. Hahahaha. --Scorvi12 07:45, 12 December 2009 (EST)
    • Maybe Scott got super strength so the viewers could say "ah, that power again, it's good he was killed off soon". If his power was more interesting, it would be disappointing for him to die. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 07:54, 12 December 2009 (EST)

Fear Induced strength

I really think it's time to finally stop calling Knox's ability enhanced strength, i think we should make a vote. I think it's the same as calling levitation telekinesis, i mean it is similar but it isn't the same. Knox's ability is allowing him to feel someone's fear, if knox's didn't use the aspect that he was able to change fear into strength, we would't call it enhanced strength. I really think that this has gone to far and i also think that a lot of people agree with me. Should we make a concensus or something?-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 09:43, 22 December 2009 (EST)

  • Why? Knox's ability is named on his assignment tracker, and his strength is indeed enhanced by others' fear. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 09:57, 22 December 2009 (EST)
    • Why? because enhanced strength only works on someone's own body, but Knox's ability is going "outside" of his own body and is able to detect someone's fear. It's like a radar. and btw the assignment tracker isn't a canon source.-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 10:03, 22 December 2009 (EST)
      • It's a near-canon source, and Knox's AT was shown in an episode, which makes the name absolutely canon. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 10:11, 22 December 2009 (EST)
        • I think that telepathy or empathy is even better than put it under enhanced strength, i mean come on this ability is able to feel someone's emotions! If there was an AT about Lydia's ability calling it telepathy, would you call it telepathy?-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 10:16, 22 December 2009 (EST)
          • Yoshi, this has been discussed countless times. In the same way that Tracy's ability is freezing because the name "freezing" was explicitly shown on the show, this ability name will remain as "enhanced strength". --Radicell 10:21, 22 December 2009 (EST)
            • I know that it has been discussed several times, and mabye you are right and i should stop this discussion. -- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 10:31, 22 December 2009 (EST)
              • You know Yoshi, you gave me an idea. How do we know others with ES never absorbed fear? Everytime this ability was used somebody was near its user - Jessica was a murderer, Mohinder was one too; Michael Fitzgerald used his ability when Rachel St. John was near; Scott used his ability only once, and Nathan, Tracy and Mohinder looked very uneasy when he yanked that chair from the floor... Although speculative, it's quite possible Knox wasn't the only one who absorbed fear. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 10:34, 22 December 2009 (EST)
                • When Niki snapped a guard baton, he was definitely not scared. No other person was said to need fear for the ability to work. As I said in the past, Knox's AT calls his ability enhanced strength. It also shows us that in the "person with similar ability" that Niki wasn't there. This is the main reason why I think they don't have the same ability. For me, the best way to approach this is to consider Knox as having "enhanced strength", because his strength is enhanced by fear, so it's not enhanced all the time, and say everyone else has "super strength", because they need no source to get stronger, so they have super strength all the time. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:44, 22 December 2009 (EST)
                  • I definitely agree with you on this IE :) Why not call theirs Super Strength? Of course we couldn't if there were canon or semi-canon source(s) citing their power as enhanced strength too. Is there? -- Jan Rodrigo (talk) (contributions) 12:02, 22 December 2009 (EST)
                    • Sylar called Micheal Fitzgerald's ability "enhanced strength and durability"; Mohinder and Dr. Zimmerman used the term "super strength"... Hope we don't split them all. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 05:50, 23 December 2009 (EST)
                      • True. I wouldn't oppose having "enhanced strength" for Knox and "super strength" for the others, but Fitzgerald explodes this idea.--Referos 08:10, 23 December 2009 (EST)
                        • And don't forget that Mohinder is "faster, stronger, more agile" :) Green.gif AltesUTC CH 08:30, 23 December 2009 (EST)
                          • Strength and agility can be understood as byproducts. If you get stronger, nothing says only your arms/hands get stronger, if they got stronger leg muscles, they'd certainly be faster. Daphne was quick with her hands as well as with her feet remember? Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 08:50, 23 December 2009 (EST)
                            • Micah used to say his mother was super strong. Hiro also used super instead of enhanced when referring to Mohinder in Close to You. There are more references to everyone minus Knox being super than being enhanced. It works. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 09:24, 12 January 2010 (EST)
                              • I agree we should split these, call this Super Strength and Knox's Enhanced Strength. --Powermimic 04:59, 19 January 2010 (EST)
                                • I also agree for a split. Knox's strength is enhanced by fear, Niki's was super all of the time. --mc_hammark 07:48, 19 January 2010 (EST)

Split

ok, so I'm not sure if this has been suggested before for the same reasons. But i'd like to suggest a split into super-strength and enhanced strength. These names would back up the cannon names for the characters' abilities (Micah calling his mum "super-strong" and Knox's assignment tracker "Enhanced strength"). If you think about it, something has to have something too enhance it; in knox's case, it's fear. Niki's would be super-strong because she can be strong no matter what, so is always super-strong. Thoughts? Remember, this split would solve a few arguments. --mc_hammark 15:12, 20 January 2010 (EST)

  • You got a point there. I agree with you on that, I've always thought (though never said anything) that Niki's ability and Knox's ability were completely different, even if they were both incredibly strong. I'm for the split. So, Knox would be kept at "Enhanced strength" and Mohinder, Niki, Scott and others with the ability would be moved to "Super strength"? --Leckie -- Talk 15:18, 20 January 2010 (EST)
    • Even if Knox's ability would be named "I am strong" i'm still happy, i just want a split.-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 15:23, 20 January 2010 (EST)
      • Something I've always wished for. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 15:44, 20 January 2010 (EST)
        • I don't think anyone is against the split? I say lets split them. --Powermimic 04:18, 21 January 2010 (EST)
          • I think we should but a split template on the page then wait a couple of days. --mc_hammark 06:31, 21 January 2010 (EST)
  • Sylar said that Michael Fitzgerald had "enhanced strength and durability" however. In which page would we place him?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 15:31, 21 January 2010 (EST)
    • Well, it didn't seem as though he was enhanced by anything, he seemed to be able to turn it on and off when he wanted. --mc_hammark 15:38, 21 January 2010 (EST)
      • Other than the glowing tattoos, Michael was closer to Niki, Mohinder and Scott than he was to Knox. The durability could have been a mention to ability immunity perhaps? Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:38, 21 January 2010 (EST)
        • Yes, but since his power was explicitly called "enhanced strength", we would have to put him with Knox, which I think defeats the purpose of the split.--Referos 16:45, 21 January 2010 (EST)
          • Right, I wasn't suggesting that he was more durable then the others. I haven't really developed an opinion towards this yet, but I don't think we can simply ignore Sylar's comment.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:49, 21 January 2010 (EST)
            • I believe that Michael wound end up with super strength because of the following. Knox's AT lists him having enhanced strength, and the spot of person with similar ability is vacant. I'm not sure about the timeline, but both Knox and Michael were Level 5 detainees, if the Company thought they had similar ability, they'd be listed as such. This is clearly not the case. Remember that when Jessica took Niki over, a tattoo appeared. Michael is once again close to what we'd call super strength. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:51, 21 January 2010 (EST)
              • That's actually a good point (in reference to the assignment tracker), but does that mean we simply assume that Sylar read the file wrong? Also, slightly unrelated but I don't think that the glowing tattoos and eyes in any graphic novel mean much. I've always interpreted it as a way of showing that an ability is being used, because it isn't always clear from a still image.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:55, 21 January 2010 (EST)
                • I believe that as well, but having an argument using the tattoos doesn't hurt our chances. About the file, I don't know, maybe he read an outdated file, or an abstract of a file, or maybe he read it as super strength and just decided to call it enhanced because for him the terms were interchangeable. Other than Sylar using enhanced to describe Michael's ability, everything points to him having the same ability as Niki, Mohinder and Scott if we consider theirs as super strength and Knox's as enhanced strength. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:00, 21 January 2010 (EST)
                  • Unless the tattoos themselves are the key to his enhanced strength. No one else had physical manifestations for their powers (Niki's tattoo was specifically when Jessica was in control, not when she necessarily had her power). --Ricard Desi (t,c) 17:01, 21 January 2010 (EST)
                    • Then it falls back to what PJDEP said about showing that the ability is in use. Simple as that. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:03, 21 January 2010 (EST)
                      • I'm just gonna put a poll below to see where we're at with the split. --mc_hammark 13:21, 23 January 2010 (EST)
                        • So what's are we splitting? Enhanced strength and Knox's ability? Or Enhanced Strength and Michael's ability?--Catalyst · Talk · HL 13:28, 23 January 2010 (EST)
                          • Enhanced strength and Knox's ability-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 13:29, 23 January 2010 (EST)
                            • No no, enhanced strength is knox's ability, as stated by the AT. It is enhanced by fear, hence the enhanced. We're splitting it into Enhanced Strength (for knox) and Super Strength (for niki and the others). --mc_hammark 13:34, 23 January 2010 (EST)
                              • What's the point in that? Enhanced, super...they both mean having greater strength than normal. I see no pint in this then.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 13:36, 23 January 2010 (EST)
                                • Knox's strenght is being enhanced by fear, Nikki and the others always have the same strenght.-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 13:38, 23 January 2010 (EST)
                                  • Ok, let me explain it. Super means to be greater than normal. Enhanced means to be made greater than normal by something, such as steroids can enhance your muscle size. Niki's strength was always super without any need for anything. Knox's however, needs to be enhanced by fear. --mc_hammark 13:40, 23 January 2010 (EST)
                                    • Hmmm.....I guess that is true. You make a good point. I'll leave my vote.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 13:44, 23 January 2010 (EST)
                  • While I do believe they should be split, I still think that they cannot be split under the current (unwritten) policy that we should never question explicit sources. Sylar explicitly called Michael's power "enhanced strength"; the naming conventions dictate that we must list him as having enhanced strength no matter what, which would put him with the same power as Knox, making the split meaningless. While I do think the naming conventions should be changed (though that seems unlikely), the current policy makes this split impossible.--Referos 12:34, 24 January 2010 (EST)

When are we going to split it? A week or something has passed so it should be time-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 15:51, 28 January 2010 (EST)

Poll

For the split

  1. --mc_hammark 13:21, 23 January 2010 (EST)
  2. -- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 13:23, 23 January 2010 (EST)
  3. --Catalyst · Talk · HL 13:30, 23 January 2010 (EST)
  4. --Leckie -- Talk 13:41, 23 January 2010 (EST) - Definately, this has been needed for a while!
  5. --Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 13:52, 23 January 2010 (EST)
  6. --PJDEP - Need further explanation? 14:04, 23 January 2010 (EST) - IE's point about the assignment tracker made my decision. Sylar said that Michael Fitzgerald also had enhanced strength, so if this split is to work, we must split Fitzgerald with Knox. As for the "people exhibiting similar abilities section", while this doesn't show Michael, it also doesn't show Niki. The word used is similar not the same, Peter, who has EM, was shown in Sylar's, who has IA, so that section of Knox's assignment tracker doesn't seem to have been thought over that well. What the assignment tracker does say however, is that Knox's ability is cerebral, not biological. So I still think that there's enough evidence to support a split. Sorry for the ridiculously long explanation.
  7. --TanderixUTCR 11:24 (Italy), January 24, 2010
  8. --Referos 12:34, 24 January 2010 (EST) -- Though I'm not comfortable doing this split under the current naming conventions
  9. -- Definitely needs to be split, Niki's and Mohinder's have always been called Super Strength, and Knox's is "Enhanced". --Powermimic 22:10, 24 January 2010 (EST)
  10. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 13:37, 25 January 2010 (EST) For the split only if Michael is split alongside him. If the question of how his strength is enhanced, I believe by seeing his tattoos glow that they are what enhance his ability, and thus the ability fits.
  11. -- Agreed, but with Mohinder at least we gotta put something about the agility in it if we split the page: given Peter's increased agility in Orientation after replicating Mohinder's ability, some kind of agility obviously comes with it or did for Mohinder maybe due to how he got the ability.--WarGrowlmon18 20:55, 30 January 2010 (EST)
  12. Split it. As we argued awhile ago, Niki and Knox plainly do not have the same power, for several reasons, not the least of which is that without fear being present, Knox has no power at all, whereas Niki/Jessica does not need any catalyst. --Stevehim 13:09, 2 February 2010 (EST)
  13. Split the page. Think about it- Niki's power is passive, and is just active all the time, whereas Knox's is active and must be consciously activated. Are there any other cases in the world of Heroes where this is true and the powers are the same? Not that I know of. Swm 12:32, 5 February 2010 (EST)
  14. --Evil Maldini 17:08, 14 February 2010 (EST)

Against the split

  1. --Riddler 14:05, 23 January 2010 (EST) Only because the argument of "Enhanced" doesn't apply to our other enhanced abilities. See Enhanced (disambig)
    Those abilities don't have a weird counterpart like this one does. Also, we're talking about the strength abilities, not other abilities. We used to call super speed by enhanced speed, but when Daphne showed up, she was called super, so we changed it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 14:09, 23 January 2010 (EST)
    If I remember correctly, we stuck with certain names to keep a consistency. I thought this was one of them, or the others were based on this one.--Riddler 14:12, 23 January 2010 (EST)
    Enhanced kinda is our default word for greater than normal anything, but in this case, AT used it to name strength that is augmented by fear. Before that AT was out, this page was called super strength, Micah called his mother super strong quite a few times, but someone decided that the article wasn't to be split, so the name for Knox's ability became the name for Niki's ability as well. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 14:19, 23 January 2010 (EST)
    Eh, I guess you're right, but if the argument to split is that "Enhanced means made better by something else and super means naturally better", then we're gonna have to rename everything else. Seems like a hassle to me.--Riddler 14:22, 23 January 2010 (EST)
    Not really, enhanced hearing and memory, at first followed this rule, but both were named as such in Sylar's AT profile, and memory was named in Matt Neuenberg's AT. Synesthesia is on the verge of a rename, so there is no trouble at all. We also changed enhanced speed to super speed without renaming all abilities, no reason to do this now. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 14:29, 23 January 2010 (EST)
  2. Knox & Michael are both defined as having "enhanced strength." Michael & Niki have their tattoos linked to their power in a mysterious, undefined way. So those three have the same ability, making this debate very odd, as Niki is the source of the term "super strength." Mohinder was defined by the writers as having "enhanced strength" as well, so, if we were fair in the split, it'd be Niki, Mohinder, Knox, Michael (Enhanced strength / Super strength) vs. Scott ("Scott's ability?"). That doesn't seem like it's worth a split to me.--Tim Thomason 04:20, 18 February 2010 (EST)
    The motion has been defeated, so don't worry about it :)--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 04:29, 18 February 2010 (EST)

"Super" and "Enhanced"

I found several definitions for the words "super" and "enhanced" and felt that they should be listed here, for the sake of the argument. "Super" is described as;
• to a great or extreme degree : superabundant | supercool.
• extra large of its kind : supercontinent.
• having greater influence, capacity, etc., than another of its kind : superbike | superpower.
• of a higher kind (esp. in names of classificatory divisions) :

and "enhance" is described as;
• intensify, increase, or further improve the quality, value, or extent of : his refusal does nothing to enhance his reputation | computer techniques that enhance images.

These defintions seems to support the argument above.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 14:34, 25 January 2010 (EST)

  • Knox's strength is enhanced (by fear); it includes a mental faculty that allows him to sense fear; Jessica's power was enhanced (by her alter ego), but it hardly seems the same...hell, I dunno, I just think Jessica's strength is super could be counted as super (as long as her alter ego was present), because she could use it in any situation; Knox's strength was only enhanced in the presence of fear (and it was accompanied by the power to sense fear, don't know why that's not listed as a superpower)... User:Shadowulf1 15:33, 28 January 2010 (EST)
    • The fact Niki could use after without Jessica means that she didn't depend on Jessica to use it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:00, 28 January 2010 (EST)
      • What is enhancing Dale/Sylar's hearing? What is enhancing Charlie's memory? What is enhancing Emma's synesthesia? Sure, your definition makes sense, but the word enhanced is used on this site as a way of describing something that is greater than normal, regardless of what makes it greater. The first definition I found for enhanced supports my side here: "increased or intensified in value or beauty or quality;" It's just increased over what would be considered normal.--Riddler 22:05, 30 January 2010 (EST)
        • As a note, this isn't my counter argument that they shouldn't be split. I'm making a point that the above argument is invalid and doesn't support the split.--Riddler 22:20, 30 January 2010 (EST)
          • You mean that, in your opinion the argument is invalid. Regardless, the statement above could hardly be called an "argument", given that it's simply the definitions of two words, and then a brief statement that says that they seem to support the split, in my personal opinion. Other users seem to have started a debate that doesn't really concern what I wrote above, but that was not my intention. Also, must all the ability names be consistent? I really don't see why they have to be.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 22:28, 30 January 2010 (EST)
            • I do believe they need to be consistent, at least if the definition is the reason it needs to be changed. If someone believes that "Enhanced strength" is different from "Super strength" because "Enhanced" means "to make greater by external means", then we need to look at all abilities that use that word and see if it applies. There are other reasons to split, but consistency is important, so this one shouldn't be regarded as a valid reason.--Riddler 22:32, 30 January 2010 (EST)
              • If we had named those abilities ourselves, that would have been a compelling argument, but as I pointed out above, all other "enhanced" abilities have either been confirmed by a canon source, or are in the verge of a rename, and that rename doesn't include the word enhanced, so we don't need to worry about that. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:31, 31 January 2010 (EST)
                • Actually, thinking about it, I believe that helps disprove the point. Think about this: The writers/Evolutions people named three separate abilities "Enhanced". It's be odd for them to use the same word three times if it had a different meaning, so it's safe to assume that in their minds "Enhanced" simply means "Greater than normal", regardless of what makes it greater.--Riddler 15:59, 31 January 2010 (EST)
                  • There are several different writers, they could have different ideas. Plus, they do make some retcons once in a while. Shape shifting wasn't supposed to affect clothes, but it did eventually, so that was retconed. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:34, 31 January 2010 (EST)
                    • And "no more time-travelling", wait, what was that? Hiro time travelled? Twice? --mc_hammark 16:38, 31 January 2010 (EST)
                  • Why wasn't "super" speed called "enhanced" speed then? I don't think the writers obsess over ability names as much as we do, unfortunately. --PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:53, 31 January 2010 (EST)
                    • Well, we called it Enhanced before someone on the show called it Super speed. That's a different source than all of our AT "Enhanced" abilities. --Riddler 21:18, 31 January 2010 (EST)
                      • Also, Hiro is the one who use the term "super speed", I believe. It would not fit the story as well for Hiro to call it "enhanced speed". "Super speed" is more fitting in his lexicon. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:05, 1 February 2010 (EST)
          • Can someone refresh me on what has been canonized in terms of this argument (it's been awhile since we hashed it out, and my memory is pretty poor these days). I know canon states Knox's ability as 'Enhanced strength,' but was anything ever stated for Niki, or was it a matter of we had named Niki's power 'Enhanced strength,' and then, since we were told (by the writer's via AT) Knox had that ability, we simply added him to the page? --Stevehim 14:29, 5 February 2010 (EST)
            • We originally called Niki's power "enhanced strength". Micah, however, explicitly called it as "super strength" in Powerless (I think he said something like "Mom, with your super strength..."), so we renamed it. When Knox appeared, his power was explicitly named as "enhanced strength" in an AT profile, which we treat as semi-divine, so the page was renamed back to "enhanced strength". There was some discussion on whether to split it or not, but the consensus was to keep the two abilities as one. I don't remember a writer confirming that Niki and Knox had the same ability, though. On the other hand, Knox's AT profile didn't say that Niki had a similar ability.--Referos 14:34, 5 February 2010 (EST)
              • TY for the refresh. I thought it was something like that, switching it back and forth. Now that you say it, iirc, there wasn't really a consensus on keeping them as having the same ability...there just wasn't a consensus on us reverting Niki to 'super strength.' If there was never any type of canon stating she had 'enhanced strength,' and we were the ones who initially named it, and we have Micah's comment (even if it can be argued that it wasn't an official 'naming,'), I'm not really sure what the argument is to keep them as one ability. A new character (ie - Knox) showing up with a power shouldn't cause us to change other characters to match it (ie - Niki) if it doesn't come along with evidence, imo. Plus, the current poll is as close to a consensus as anything ever gets around here. --Stevehim 19:07, 5 February 2010 (EST)

Can we split this?

Was just curious where we're at with this. Ryan's comment on the freezing discussion would seem to indicate that we have to give Niki a separate power called super strength, at the very least, and it's pretty much unanimous (13-1 with the 1 person semi-conceding the point after discussion). Can we go ahead and do this split (or move into the phase of discussing exactly how we are going to split it...maybe people can make proposal pages or something)? --Stevehim 23:19, 11 February 2010 (EST)

  • I saw a discussion about this on RGS's talk page. Apparently, since there was a motion to split before, that failed, the users who opposed to first split must retract their positions for the split to happen.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 23:31, 11 February 2010 (EST)
  • There needs to be consensus. According to this original consensus check, there's not consensus. People who previously felt that there should be no split would need to be contacted for their opinions. I was one of the people against the split, I was contacted, and I gave my opinion that I would be fine with a split. (More specifically, my opinion has changed to such that I don't have an opinion anymore.) Since a new, more recent poll doesn't negate the opinions people have previously expressed, we would need to check with active members (I would say "active" means having made an edit in, say, the last month or so) to see if their opinions have changed, too. Specifically, Piemanmoo, MiamiVolts, and HiroDynoSlayer need to be checked with to see if they're okay with going against an opinion they've already expressed. If they're cool with it, then I think we can go ahead and do a split without any problem. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:34, 11 February 2010 (EST)
    • I have asked all three what they think, and am awaiting their replies. Just to be clear though (mostly so I won't have to keep bothering you about this  ;)), if any one of them objects, it is a dead issue? --Stevehim 00:03, 12 February 2010 (EST)
      • Let's cross that bridge when we come to it. I suppose it depends on the nature of the objection... -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:59, 12 February 2010 (EST)
  • If Enhanced strength is given to knox, and everyone else is listed as super strength, then you have my blessing to make the split. --Piemanmoo 00:10, 12 February 2010 (EST)
    • Yep, I believe that's the plan. That goes for Michael Fitzgerald having super strength too, right? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:59, 12 February 2010 (EST)
      • Sylar explicitly stated that Michael Fitzgerald had "enhanced strength and durability". We can't ignore that, can we?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 01:11, 12 February 2010 (EST)
        • It does seem that is ability is activated by something hence the glowing tattoos (and eyes?). So with that and what Sylar said, it's safe to say that Micheal has Enhanced strength. --OutbackZack 01:22, 12 February 2010 (EST)
          • Yep, that's correct. Forgot about that. You cool with that, Pieman? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 01:36, 12 February 2010 (EST)
            • Michael seemed to be able to use his ability even though Sylar wasn't scared of him. It would also seem weird that two level 5 escapees would have the exact same ability. Even though Sylar said he has enhanced strength, from what we saw it was still more close to super strength. But whatever, I dont care either way.--Piemanmoo 00:29, 3 March 2010 (EST)
  • I was asked to give my thoughts on this, so I've read the prior discussion to see if anything had been added recently. The only thing I noticed was regarding "freezing", where Ryan explained a guideline that we need to follow what was given to us for the name of an ability. Then, the discussion was brought up again here, pointing out again the explicit mentioning of 'super strength' in the show. For me, I haven't seen anything new mentioned that would change my mind into thinking that there needed to be a split. Since the assignment tracker (AT) overrules the episode character statements in naming the ability, if we had a new AT for someone else with another form of enhanced strength, then I could see splitting off Niki's ability. If say, a certain lumberjack named Paul Bunyan were to make an appearance, and someone noted him as having an ability called 'oxen strength' (being as strong as an ox), then I think he would also appear on the enhanced strength page (unless the ability name showed up in an AT). The point being that the main result of the ability was the same (enhancement of strength), even though the means might be different, and those are the abilities that we can group together.--MiamiVolts (talk) 04:34, 12 February 2010 (EST)
    • I agree with MV. I just don't see enough difference in the (super/enhanced) strength abilities to merit a split. At one point, Matt and Maury's usages of Telepathy were very different, but we didnt split Telepathy because the fundamental ability wasn't 2 different abilities. "Exceptional" Strength is still one fundamental ability, not two different abilities, even if it's adherents arrived with it from different triggers.(Hulk=Gamma Rays and Rage, Superman=Yellow Sun, Popeye=Spinach, Niki=Synthetic untriggered, Knox=fear triggered). --HiroDynoSlayer (talk) 02/12/2010 08:53 (EST)
      • Fair enough and thank you all for responding. I won't start the old debate again here, because you're right in that everything has probably been said at this point and you should not have to rehash your arguments again, but I will ask if we're doing this (grouping abilities that seem the same but have been described differently), where is the line? Can't a case then be made for Plant manipulation and Plant growth to be merged, even if one displayed aspects the other didn't (similar to Knox's fear detection)? I am not proposing we actually do that, as I prefer more powers listed as opposed to less as a general rule, but it seems like we could take this argument and apply it there. Many of the rationales given when that was discussed are the same ones being used here, (eg - no similar person listed on the AT, same ability initially but evolved differently, etc) but in an opposite fashion. --Stevehim 11:17, 12 February 2010 (EST)
        • As far as that example goes, plant growth is strictly the growth of plants, whereas plant manipulation is far more. I'd say that Knox's "fear sense" is a byproduct of his unique need of fear in order to be stronger. (I'd make the similar argument that Emma's synesthesia is a byproduct of her need to see the sound she is manipulating, but that's neither here nor there.) Variance in aspects is perfectly acceptable for EHs with the same ability, but major differences is not. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 11:30, 12 February 2010 (EST)
          • Deciding what is a major difference and what is a byproduct is the issue though...we all clearly don't agree on things like this, and really never have, one way or the other. --Stevehim 11:37, 12 February 2010 (EST)
            • Agreed, and that's what these kinds of threads are for :P --Ricard Desi (t,c) 11:47, 12 February 2010 (EST)
              • Yup. Time consuming, but fun.  :) --Stevehim 11:52, 12 February 2010 (EST)
      • On the subject of what constitutues a major difference...what about the fact that Knox's ability is active, while everyone else save possibly Micheal's is passive and there all the time? Swm 18:47, 12 February 2010 (EST)
        • But we can't even argue that. The existence of fear is not something he turns on, it's just as passive as the rest of the ability.--Ricard Desi (t,c) 19:48, 12 February, 2010 (EST)
          • But Knox doesn't get stronger just when people are scared. He has to actually "draw in" the fear to boost his own strength, right? This is where all the hissing and so on comes from, and his AT states he has to actually take the fear and convert it into the strength. Therefore, it seems active to me. Swm 18:52, 12 February 2010 (EST)