Talk:Main Page/Archive 1

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Links to characters on main page

  • Links to main characters should probably remain on the main page, though I agree current form is too cluttered. Could be removed once a link to a the characters page is added, but ultimately I think it would be convenient to include the main characters in a small compact table somewhere on the main page for easy access since that's where most people head immediately. Thoughts? (Admin 20:29, 17 October 2006 (EDT))
  • No, it was too cluttered. I moved all links like that to the brand new, copied-from-Wikipedia, [[Heroes]] official TV Show page. That reminds me; Someone needs to format it to allow infoboxes. --Gaterion 20:36, 17 October 2006 (EDT)
    • Reverted the main page earlier when the links were gone and there was no path to the character list. If the new [[Heroes]] page is ready to your liking then just clear out my revert and link to the new [[Heroes]] page and we'll be set! (Admin 20:40, 17 October 2006 (EDT))
    • See the Index at the bottom of http://lostpedia.com for an example of what I'm talking about. They have a table with links to all the characters and main topics. Nice and compact. I'm going to pull it in and update it for us.

Heroes Graphic Novels

  • Should we treat the material in the graphic novels as canonical? Was Chandra Suresh killed in what appears to be an accident in his taxi? Did Claire Bennet pull Brody Mitchum out of the car after she slammed into the wall? Or perhaps should information obtained through the graphic novels be located in a separate section of the character profiles? (Admin 15:44, 23 October 2006 (EDT))
    • I dunno. The writers seem to be treating it like canon so far. Maybe wait and see what happens with Claire and Brody tonight ... that could be the most concrete proof that the GNs are canonical. It might not hurt to put them in a separate section in either case, just to make it clearer to anyone who's looking for the source.--Hardvice 17:23, 23 October 2006 (EDT)
    • I think we should. The facts presented in the graphic novels seem consistent with what happens in the show.-- Heroe 7:38, 2 November 2006

Other Wiki

  • Hey, a bunch of us members at the 9thwonders boards recently made a Heroes based wiki...unbeknownst to us that there was already one of much higher caliber in the works. One thing I have noticed about this one is that there isn't as much of a community effort going on as there is with ours. I was thinking we could possibly combine our two wikis, essentially just adding things from ours that would help perfect yours. If you'd like to check us out, we're currently here. Like I said before, your layout and wiki coding skills far surpass ours but if we could maybe form some type of Heroes Wiki Alliance where our members can make yours everything it needs to be. Let me know what you think. --Sidney 17:50, 24 October 2006 (EDT)
    • Hey, Sidney, nice to see you here. I did check out your wiki, it's pretty nice so far. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a lack of community effort. We have a number of people making contributions. There are just a lot of edits taking place right now in order to organize things. I think I've seen maybe 5-6 people contributing here so far, though that number keeps going up every day since the number of visitors we're getting has been increasing a lot each day! You and anyone at your wiki are more than welcome to contribute here, it's an open community that's growing pretty quickly. We'd be happy to have you here. (Admin 18:00, 24 October 2006 (EDT))
      • Ok, I've officially moved here since it seems to be the most in depth Heroes Wiki project so far. There's 2-3 other ones listed at This 9th Wonders Thread, but this one is at a much more advanced stage than any of those. Probably the closest to the Lostpedia which I usually use when comparing Fan-based Wikis since it's sooo amazing.
        • Heh. My inspiration is Memory Alpha, the Star Trek wiki. Their level of detail is truly astonishing.--Hardvice 03:36, 25 October 2006 (EDT)

Main Page Layout

  • If anyone wants to tackle a change to the layout of the Main Page that could be helpful. Since it's the first page most people see when they get here we should make sure it's as clean and pretty as possible. Unfortunately I have very little artistic sense. :) (Admin 10:17, 25 October 2006 (EDT))
    • How about an "article of the week"? During the season it can just be last week's episode, and then during hiatus we could highlight other good articles (characters, etc.) With what Sidney's doing, the whole main page could just be a series of well-formatted includes, and it would look pretty nice.--Hardvice 16:53, 25 October 2006 (EDT)
      • I like that idea, Hardvice. I'm thinking we could also use something like a "Next week on heroes" with the summary for next week's episode. (Admin 12:55, 28 October 2006 (EDT))
        • Take a look at Hardvice/Main Page and let me know what you think.--Hardvice 17:06, 28 October 2006 (EDT)
          • I think it looks very nice. I like table borders and the coloring. Makes the Main Page look even fancier and professional now. (Admin 17:15, 28 October 2006 (EDT))
            • It'll require a bit of maintenance ... changing out the article, changing the "next on Heroes" section, and making sure the article clips using <noinclude> so it doesn't overwhelm the front page, but I think it's pretty nifty.--Hardvice 17:32, 28 October 2006 (EDT)
      • I added some tables but I can't figure out the right wiki code to make the Fan Sites section go to the right of the News section rather than under it. If someone could figure that out, I'd be most appreciative.--Sidney 16:59, 25 October 2006 (EDT)
        • Better now? :) (Admin 17:58, 25 October 2006 (EDT))
          • I think it looks great, the only thing is that the News section is now vertically larger than the Fan Sites section. Is there a way to make them exactly the same size?--Sidney 19:32, 26 October 2006 (EDT)
  • Awesome work on the main page everyone, especially Hardvice. I just joined and only watch each episode twice at most, but I hope to be able to contribute in minor ways (usually related to wording). --DeweyQ 23:46, 23 December 2006 (EST)

Fan Site Awards

  • What does everyone think of granting awards here to different fan sites? For example we could have sites that do a lot to help promote this wiki stand out somehow. Heroes Media for instance is a large fan site that is now linking to us whenever people click on "Show Info" at the top. This is great for us and I think it'd be nice if we could reciprocate by voting on awards for certain fan sites. I would be in favor of a relatively few number of awards so that being awarded in general remains a coveted prize. Maybe 3-4 award types at max? For starters there could be an award for the sites that "Actively promote Heroes Wiki"... a way of thanking them for working with us. Thoughts? (Admin 23:28, 27 October 2006 (EDT))
  • Or perhaps we should leave the Fan Sites neutral and have a Heroes Wiki news link instead under News and just post news articles there along with links to those sites when we're mentioned? Im thinking that might be a better idea, personally. (Admin 23:47, 27 October 2006 (EDT))
    • I agree. It is fantastic that they are linking to us, though.--Hardvice 03:31, 28 October 2006 (EDT)

Icon

So, I think we should have an icon. The little picture thing next to the URL.The better bard 03:26, 2 November 2006 (EST)

I agree. There's an logo contest currently accepting submissions for both a new site logo as well as a favicon, which is what you're referring to. Hoping we get a bunch of submissions to pick from. (Admin 03:37, 2 November 2006 (EST))

Alternate languages

  • A number of our visitors are coming internationally, so I'm wondering what the general opinion is on starting a translated article project in order to make things easier for those who might not understand English so well. Got a preliminary outline of the project here. Looking for opinions or suggestions on the idea. (Admin 23:31, 5 November 2006 (EST))
  • Or maybe I should just setup an independent parallel wiki for each supported language. I'm not sure. Hoping for some feedback from the international community for this one. (Admin 00:44, 6 November 2006 (EST))
  • Perhaps setting up multi-language wikis would cause too much inconsistency across the languages. Maybe adding links to Google Translate for different popular languages would be sufficient? The translations aren't perfect, but they might be good enough to help those who don't know English while keeping them consistent. (Admin 12:06, 6 November 2006 (EST))
    • The only other language I read (poorly) is French, but the Google translate links seem to do a pretty admirable job ... much better than I would have expected. It seems like an excellent compromise to me ... unless/until we get a bunch of foreign-language editors who are willing to re-write each and every article, and then a bunch of multi-lingual editors who are willing/able to keep everything matched up, there's probably no better way to do it. The translations might not be perfect, but every change to an English-language page is reflected automatically.--Hardvice 14:31, 6 November 2006 (EST)
    • The difficult part, when translators are found, will be to keep up to date each page when changes come. I will translate the pages in French when you'll activate the possibility to do that. (Dhaya 15:54, 6 November 2006 (EST))
      • Ok, I've setup a French version here. I brought in a few untranslated pages and templates just to get a basic design working until it gets translated.
  • Hi folks. I'm from germany and really interested in a german version of heroeswiki. I'd like to start the translation into german if you could activate this possibilty. I also know some german communities and i don't think there's a problem finding people to help. I've been already involved to start the translation of the german version of lostpedia, so there won't be problems. Greetz--Bob 20:41, 8 November 2006 (PDT)
    • Hi, Bob. I'll setup a German version today and let you know when it's available. Nice to have you here! :) (Admin 17:03, 8 November 2006 (EST))
      • Wow, that was fast. Cool, can't hardly wait to start. THX !!!--Bob 23:15, 8 November 2006 (PDT)

Nov. 8 welcome

  • I hope nobody minds my special front page welcome for today. (fcphantom 13:37, 8 November (EDT))

Wikipedia

  • I saw someone added HeroesWiki as a link on the Heroes Wikipedia page. I'm not sure who did it, but someone will probably remove it soon as it's against policy. Although the sentiment that we're good enough to be included on Wikipedia is appreciated nonetheless. :) When they do remove it, please don't cause a fuss. Lostpedia's been through this already and I would hate for us to be causing trouble there. We're not an official site so it's against Wikipedia's policy to include links to us. Which isn't a problem, we're doing well on our own. :) (Admin 01:42, 9 November 2006 (EST))

Main Page -- So much content, so little room

  • In its current state, the main page seems (at least to me) a little strangely proportioned. In web design in general, the rule of thumb is to make your "front page" provide most of its content without having to scroll. If we are to have much more brand-new stuff added to the Wiki, then we should think about doing one of two things. Either make the main page capable of displaying more content up front (i.e. without having to scroll way down to see a lot of things) or really start breaking up some of the main page's content and moving it to secondary pages. One thing I can think of in terms of reorganizing the page is maybe rethinking the "article of the week." Right now, it's really really huge. It takes up about two thirds of the entire main page. In general, when people come to this wiki, they're probably not here to read the synopsis of the episode that just aired; at least, it's probably not their main interest. Perhaps we could shrink it a bit? For example, it could display the episode info box & the bulleted synopsis. The quoted narration, trivia & memorable quotes could be saved for the full article. That way, the bulleted synopsis could be moved below the info box, and the width of the "article of the week" could be decreased by about half. Then, we could have 3 columns & in turn fit more in. Anyone else agree? Or am I totally crazy? (I'm pretty sure both scenarios are equally likely ;D ) -- 3 19:34, 11 November 2006 (EST)
    • I do agree it's probably going to start getting more cluttered if it's not already. Few opinions I have:
      1. Stop the article of the week right after the "For a complete summary..." This makes the AOTW much shorter. Beneath that we could fit in a couple boxes horizontally. Page would probably be about 1/2 or 2/3 the length it is now.
      2. We can consider moving Fan Sites and the upcoming Podcasts boxes off the Main Page and make it a link off the Main Page. There are a lot of fan sites and more popping up every day, so I dont think they need to be shown right on the Main Page. If we want to leave some on the Main Page I'd say include the fan sites that have linked to us prominently as a way of thanking them. (Admin 19:44, 11 November 2006 (EST))
      • I gave it a go. I just clipped the AOTW and commented out the fan sites for now, and moved the intro into the first column for balance. What does everybody think?--Hardvice (talk) 03:19, 12 November 2006 (EST)
        • Looks neat on 1280x1024 :) But try squeezing the window a little and it doesn't really look good anymore. I think one column to the right must suffice. As far as the AOTW is concerned, why not rename it to "Last Episode" and only give a link with a picture to it's page. That would free most of the page. --CmdrCash 06:16, 12 November 2006 (EST)
          • The AOTW is going to be the most recent episode during the season, but once they go into reruns we'll be picking other random good articles for AOTW. I personally like having the episode infobox with the summary as it looks now. It doesn't take up as much space as it did before. I also agree that three columns may be too much. When I look at the Main Page now it feels more crowded and confusing, but that could just be me; I found how it was before with one column to the right to look more relaxing. (Admin 11:53, 12 November 2006 (EST))
          • However, the more I look at it, the more used to it I become. heh. Plus it does shorten the page a good deal and gives us room for adding more. hmmm. (Admin 12:04, 12 November 2006 (EST))
            • Go back one revision and I had a two-column version. I personally like the two-column one better, but I thought I'd try both and see which was more popular.--Hardvice (talk) 13:30, 12 November 2006 (EST)
              • Yeah, that one looks good, too. Except we'd need to link to Fan Sites and Podcasts somewhere. Plus I'd really like to leave room for at least a couple fan sites on the Main Page since there are a couple sites that link to us prominently and I think we should link back to them on the Main Page as a thanks. I think with a wiki it's acceptable to have the Main Page scroll a little bit. See Lostpedia's Main Page for instance. We should try to keep it short when possible, but it doesn't have to be too short. (Admin 13:57, 12 November 2006 (EST))
                • Yeah, I don't mind the scrolling at all. However, the 3 column version breaks a bit at low res. The real problem here is that widening the second column doesn't really gain you much because the fan sites and podcasts are lists ... they're just as long at 50% width as they were at 30% width. What about if we made a Links page, and linked the fan sites we want to reciprocate links to in the main sidebar (with the translations and the toolbox and stuff)? There's room over there, and then they'd really get some exposure since they'd (potentially) be on every page.--Hardvice (talk) 14:09, 12 November 2006 (EST)
                  • What about making a link to this new fansite & podcast page right after Donations? And the biggest fan sites should stay on the main page, albeit a little further down page. Putting them on the left doesn't seem the right way... btw: I'm cleaning the design of the main page a bit up at my page. It's just another suggestion--CmdrCash 14:16, 12 November 2006 (EST)
                  • I wanted to avoid putting links to fan sites on the left side. The left side is more for links that are applicable on every page, like the translations for instance. It seems a little out of place to have links to fan sites show up on every article. I think we should find a way to incorporate at least a few of them onto the Main Page and then potentially have a "more" link that takes people to a full listing of fan sites. (Admin 14:31, 12 November 2006 (EST))
                    • Good point. Maybe a (thin) horizontal bar like the Index would be a better option for fan sites, then. It would somewhat limit the number of sites we could link, but it would work better with the screen real estate. We can throw in a "more" link and add a links page.--Hardvice (talk) 15:22, 12 November 2006 (EST)
                    • I added a horizontal version of the fan sites section at template:linkbar. It needs to be pared down to the ones we need, and we'd probably have to protect it, but it should take up a lot less space.--Hardvice (talk) 15:42, 12 November 2006 (EST)
                      • How about a basic nav bar at the very top of the page? Really basic, just with like "Episodes -- Characters -- Plot Points -- Graphic Novels -- Fanbase" ? We could probably include more categories as needed. In fact, at its size (one line of text) it could be placed on every page. That way, you wouldn't have to return to the main page to easily navigate to another category --3 16:37, 13 November 2006 (EST)
                        • Sounds cool. Of course, you can always get to the Category list by clicking the first part of the Category link at the bottom of any page (the "Category:" part, not the name of the category).--Hardvice (talk) 17:23, 13 November 2006 (EST)
                        • I'd suggest bottom of the page in order to keep things cleaner. I suspect it might look a little weird at the top of the page because it'll be after the name of the page and before all the text. I think nav features typically look better at the bottom, but it sounds like a good idea to keep people from having to go all the way back to the main page. (Admin 20:09, 13 November 2006 (EST))

Future AOTW Nominees

  • We've only got a couple weeks left before the winter hiatus. We should start thinking of good articles we can use as AOTW during the break. Ideally, they should be 1) really well done and 2) either short enough to fit nicely or editable into a front-page ready snippet. Ideas?--Hardvice (talk) 16:40, 12 November 2006 (EST)
    • Wow, lively discussion, guys! In any case, I think we should probably focus on main character articles ... the have images and sidebars and would make nice replacements for the episodes. We'll have to <noinclude> out the character histories, though, and probably most of the rest of the article (since the AOTW is just a snippet). Therefore, we should go with characters that have a good intro section and a good About section. We may need to beef up our character pages with more description, and maybe some quotes, since they're mostly all history right now.--Hardvice (talk) 17:36, 1 December 2006 (EST)
  • Well, how about this order: Hiro, Peter, Mr. Benett, Mohinder Suresh, Claire, Niki... That will get us through the 6 weeks, and those characters are the most robust. I think we should wait on the outcome of the next episode to see what happens to Isaac (I've read some rumors...) --Orne 18:11, 1 December 2006 (EST)
    • Great list, Orne ... I would take out Mohinder or Niki, and replace with Sylar ... I also think a non-character article would be a good fit: maybe Isaac's paintings (they're really great art and a small gallery would look fantastic on the main page) or Powers, but with a lot more info?? I also have a penchant for the graphic novels - I think it'd be cool to introduce them to viewers who aren't familiar with them ... And if all else fails, the lizard page is always available! :) - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:00, 1 December 2006 (EST)
      • The graphic novels aren't a bad idea at all, especially since they are going to continue releasing them over the break.--Hardvice (talk) 21:17, 1 December 2006 (EST)
        • *cheer!* I had no idea the GNs were going to continue! I'll at least get my fix during the break... - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 23:55, 1 December 2006 (EST)
  • I stuck up the new Graphic Novel for now. We can change it when we get another article cleaned up and ready, or we can leave it (it is the most current Heroes content, I guess).--Hardvice (talk) 04:18, 12 December 2006 (EST)

Article of the week

  • I don't like the content of the article of the week, as long it's only shows a summary of the last episode. If you don't saw the episode, you'll don't read it, because of spoilers. If you saw the episode, this information is totally worthless. I would prefer news of production, cast, tv-ratings, etc. What du you think about this idea? (P.S. I'm very confused about my timezone, so don't mind the changes of the letters at the end of my post...;-) ) --Bob 07:21, 14 November 2006 (CET)
    • A lot of people who come here check out info on the most recent episode. The AOTW highlights this episode on the Main Page allowing people who did see the episode to quickly get to information about it (or about specific events listed in the summary) and allowing people who didn't see the episode to see a brief summary of it before they watch it. However I like the idea of also including the news like you recommend because I think that'd be useful. (Admin 09:16, 14 November 2006 (EST))
  • I think the AOTW's shouldn't just be about the most recent episode, but also articles about the Graphic Novels, characters, etc.
    • That's what the plan is. During the season the AOTW would be the previous episode, but during reruns we'd select other clean articles and make them AOTW. (Admin 16:53, 22 November 2006 (EST))


Who's the most powerful flamewar prevention?

  • Ok, so, I don't really want to really ask that since it's a flame war waiting to happen. But there is this list: http://unspun.amazon.com/list/show/2898 . so I was thinking it'd be interesting to have on the front page or someplace else a "Vote on who you think is the most powerful Heroes character." Could be interesting. --Bill 17:13, 1 December 2006 (EST)
    • I agree. Maybe a link near where we announce the logo contest (or in place of, since it's over), and then another on the Community Portal.--Hardvice (talk) 17:33, 1 December 2006 (EST)
      • On this wiki is the Admin the guy to give main page editing approval? Or someone in the admins list (like you Hardvice)? Or just once someone on the discussion page agrees? --Bill 21:00, 1 December 2006 (EST)
        • Anyone can edit the main page. Generally, we discuss it a bit, but feel free to give it a go. As of yet, we have no protected pages.--Hardvice (talk) 21:12, 1 December 2006 (EST)
          • Ok, I've added it. Someone can make a funnier or catchier paragraph. --Bill 00:42, 2 December 2006 (EST)

Show's Hiatus

Should the "Next on Heroes" box show that the show will be coming back on 01-22-07? It seems slightly silly to include a link to 'Godsend', Which is blank... Rwun 01:43, 5 December 2006 (EST)


Name

I guess it's too late to change it now, but y'all should have called this site Heropedia, rather than just the plain, ordinary "Heroes Wiki." Like Lost's Wiki...it's called Lostpedia, to directly mimic granddaddy Wikipedia. Oh well, what's in a name--it's the content that matters. And boy, with a show like this, is there a lot.--Antodav 21:29, 17 December 2006 (EST)

I considered it when I originally set up the site, but I thought Heroespedia sounded dumb, so I went with Heroes Wiki. :) (Admin 00:58, 18 December 2006 (EST))
Plus there's the important difference that we're not an encyclopedia like Wikipedia is, so this way people can't claim we are. Being an encyclopedia has certain implications on the type of information contained within. Wikipedia is supposed to be completely factual whereas a Heroes Wiki can include non-factual information (Theories for example) that fans enjoy nonetheless. Plus the name's shorter and everyone likes shorter domain names! :) (Admin 01:17, 18 December 2006 (EST))
I appreciate the distinction between being a wiki and being an encycopedia. Plus, I think the name sets us apart from Lostpedia. But it's all a moot point anyway, right? - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 06:30, 18 December 2006 (EST)
Pretty much, yeah. Just explaining my reasoning back when setting things up. :) (Admin 09:20, 18 December 2006 (EST))

UK premiere of Heroes

Greetings! I work for the SCI FI channel (UK), and as you probably know we have the exclusive broadcast rights to Heroes over here. It's a tremendous coup for us, we're genuinely over the moon about it, and I was wondering if I could provide some information for this wiki? I have no doubt that you have plenty of British visitors already, and will have vastly more in February, once we start showing Heroes. I'm sure they would appreciate knowing some more about our activity around the show, for example. Rest assured, I am not here to be the 'evil corporate influence', naturally I am subject to the same rule of consensus as everyone else, and will abide by the majority view.

PS Sendhil Ramamurthy was in our offices this morning, and a lovely fellow he is too. We got a lot of stuff with him (on camera interview, etc) - a good example of the kind of content I'm talking about mentioning here. SCI FI (UK) 09:19, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Welcome! We'd be glad to have you here. Feel free to include UK information wherever it's relevant. If any of it needs moving or reformatting to fit in with the current style then one of us will help out. :) (Admin 09:28, 20 December 2006 (EST))
First things first, is there currently any page that talks about the broadcast dates of territories other than America? I'm afraid I can't find it, if there is... SCI FI (UK) 10:01, 20 December 2006 (EST)
Hmmm. Not yet, but there probably should be. Up until the UK premiere, the only one I've known about is Canada, and they air the same dates as the U.S. We should probably look at how places like Lostpedia deal with spoilers on the main page for other territories while we're at it. Also, where were you guys when I lived in England? We only had four channels, and unless you liked Basil Brush and Rainbow, there really wasn't much on a lot of the time. :) --Hardvice (talk) 12:38, 20 December 2006 (EST)
I've made a Broadcasts page, not sure what could link to it though. -Level 15:10, 20 December 2006 (EST)
We're glad to have you aboard! You can inject your evil corporate influence anytime you want (everybody needs a good villain!), as long as you give us good content - and interesting interviews with the cast. Let us know if we can be of any help. :) - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:29, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Portal Navbar

or

The Heroes Graphic Novels · About the Show · Heroes Evolutions · The iStories

?

Is the second one too compact? I like the one-line format much better and I think it will look more streamlined, but I don't know if it's too cluttered-looking. I want something that will fit at 1024x768, though. Of course, one or two more top level cats and we're screwed again, but I personally much prefer the smaller one. Thoughts?--Hardvice (talk) 22:40, 21 December 2006 (EST)

Personally, I like the first one. I think it makes it look more prominent. (Admin 22:44, 21 December 2006 (EST))
Also FYI for me the second one doesn't resize itself when I resize the browser window. The rightmost images get cut off. The first one does resize for me. (Admin 22:46, 21 December 2006 (EST))
I think that's fixed now. I tend to agree for the main page, but I think I like the smaller one for the portal pages themselves. Lemme try it that way.--Hardvice (talk) 22:56, 21 December 2006 (EST)
The second one looks much better - and this is the one I'd love to use ... until we have to add some more cats. I think the top one is the better choice, especially since we're only a dozen eps in, and I'm sure we'll be adding some more top levels. The top one gets my vote. However, Hardvice, I have to say that they both look fantastic. Seriously, well done! - RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 06:46, 22 December 2006 (EST)
Yep, they look great. Just make sure that whatever one you go with does wrap cleanly for smaller browser windows. Pages that force a certain width drive me nuts. And I often make my browser screen really narrow so I can read faster. (It's easier to track back to the beginning of the next line. And sometimes I can just skim vertically rather than back and forth. :) --Bill 13:39, 22 December 2006 (EST)
They should both work at 1024 and above. (The big one actually works at 800x600, but it takes up about half the horizontal real estate). Most of the portals don't work too well below 1024 anyway, though some are okay at 800x600.--Hardvice (talk) 13:58, 22 December 2006 (EST)
I'd like to take another crack at a two-row version. It just looks too huge to me. Maybe I can slim down some of the padding and margins and make it less ... monolithic.--Hardvice (talk) 14:02, 22 December 2006 (EST)