Talk:Puppet master

From Heroes Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search
Ability Naming Conventions
The following sources are used for determining evolved human ability names, in order:
Episodes
2. Near-canon Sources Webisodes,
Graphic Novels,
iStories,
Heroes Evolutions
3. Secondary Sources Episode commentary,
Interviews,
Heroes: Survival
4. Common names for abilities Names from other works
5. Descriptions of abilities Descriptions
6. Possessor's name If no non-speculative
description is possible

Note: The highlighted row represents the level of the source used to determine puppet master's name.
Source/Explanation
This ability is explicitly named in Edgar's list and in Eric Doyle's Assignment Tracker 2.0.
Archives Archived Topics
Nov-Dec 2008 Why not just use "Puppetry" as Title and "Puppet MasBring back the "Eric's Ability" nam
Dec 2008-Apr 2009

Nowhere Man, Part 4

In Nowhere Man Part 4, Doyle closed a door with his ability, but there was no human there for him to make do it. Should we add this to the limits section? Teh Krush 20:28, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

Telekinesis

Does Doyle have telekinesis? Because the last webisode showed him closing a door with his power. Sylar has also demonstrated similar aspects of this ability (with Mrs. Campbell). Could it be that they both have telekinesis, they just access it in different ways? Just a theory... -Vampirate68 21:16, 15 May 2009 (EDT)

  • It does seem like that. I always thought Doyle's power was just to control people. Sylar also demonstrated a puppet master like ability in The invisible thread, while controlling Claire. I am very unsure about this.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 21:19, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
  • It could be that the writers are changing there minds. At first they wanted Doyle to be a puppet master but then wanted his power to be a bit broader and they changed it or are in the process of changing it into telekinesis. -Vampirate68 21:22, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
  • But then again, many abilities have similar aspects but are not the same ability. This feeds into my idea that all powers stem from four or five MAIN abilities and all the other abilities are just different ways of accessing them. -Vampirate68 21:27, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
    • That's an interesting theory.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 21:34, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
    • It has little proof at the moment other than that some powers do the same or similar things. I've just always thought that that would be a explainable reason for similar abilities. -Vampirate68 21:37, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
  • The actor that plays Doyle stated that his ability is to control the function of objects and people. He also said it has been shown before the door with the revolving of the gun in his first major episode appearance. This was on his twitter account, which I would try to pull up, but he's always updating it with a bunch of stuff so it would take a while. --OutbackZack 23:50, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
    • Didn't Claire twirl the gun? I didn't see the gun twirling by itself. And Actors can say a lot about their characters but it's still up to the directors. -Vampirate68 08:22, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
      • The actor said he suggested the "controlling the function of objects" to the director and he liked it so they went with it. Go back and watch that scene where the gun spins. I'm sure that's what he was referring to.--OutbackZack 18:41, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
        • Odd, I remember him controlling one of the three to spin the gun. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:07, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
          • Yeah I thought so too. I'll go back through his twits and get a screen picture of it to show you guys. --OutbackZack 20:19, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
  • Not sure how to upload pics on here, but here is the link to it: http://tinypic.com/m/2mmmie/3 --OutbackZack 20:43, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
    • You're right. Good find.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 22:58, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
  • I still swear that one of the three twirled the gun -Vampirate68 15:16, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
    • If someone can they should go back and watch that part. I can look around on the net to see if I can find and watch that episode.--OutbackZack 18:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
      • It should be on the NBC site. They have all of Season 3 -Vampirate68 21:40, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
        • Hilariously enough, the pic used for the article for that episode is Doyle making Claire spin the gun. [[1]]It was a mistake on the writers' and David's part.  :) --Action Figure 08:30, 31 May 2009 (EDT)
    • I'm sorry if any of this comes across as too sardonic, but how exactly is he able to control the movement of people and objects without telekinesis? When his ability was just controlling the movement of people it was possible some form of mind control was involved, but inanimate objects such as doors do not possess minds. The only force that describes movement that I'm aware of is kinetics, so unless the writers have decided that Doyle appeals to the Puppet God or the God of Movement or something, kinetics must have some sort of bearing on his power. With that said, I can't understand why the kinetic forces he creates can only control the movement of people and close doors, unless he's creating some sort of subconscious psychological limitation for himself. If he was, his power would actually be telekinesis, he would just be unaware of it. It's entirely possible I'm missing something really obvious, so if someone could provide sort of explanation that would be great.--PJDEP 18:56, 10 November 2009 (EST)
      • Him being able to control objects was actually came from the David Lawrence III, the actor who plays Doyle. That's the only reason why he's able to do that. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 19:03, 11 November 2009 (EST)
        • I get where the idea came from, I'm just wondering if there is a logical explanation for the power or if it's just a "because we said so" situation.--PJDEP 19:57, 11 November 2009 (EST)
          • I think it's just because they said so. If someone else can think up a logical explanation, please share it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:14, 12 November 2009 (EST)
            • It was in the last episode of Nowhere man that he closed the door. And the way I see it is, he can only control the motor functions of anything, so possibly pushing a button, closing a door, opening a drawer. What you're saying is that he has some sort of telekinesis, where as the truth is that anyone with telekinesis has the limits of multiple abilities. They can control people physically, and if they learned to control individual atoms, they could slow their movement down causing freezing, speed movement up to cause combustion or heating, manipulate electricity, enhance their strength, fly, levitate things, imprint things, bend light to cause invisibility, and probably more. You're looking at it as this is a weak version of telekinesis, where as the truth is, telekinesis is a very broad ability, which has loads of potential byproducts. --mc_hammark 12:44, 12 November 2009 (EST)

Sound Effects

What are the sound effects for puppet master(y)? I see you guys are saying that when Sylar was controlling Clair's movements, and when he made Mrs. Campbell shut up, you heard the puppet mastery sound effects. I was just wondering what those sound effects are. :)--ERROR 19:27, 6 June 2009 (EDT)

  • when a puppet master shuts the mouth of someone, it sounds like a metal door closing. Not sure about the movements though.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 19:33, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
  • You can also sometimes hear demented laughter when the ability is being used. -Sincerely, Thrashmeister » talk- 20:36, 6 June 2009 (EDT)

Oh. Thanks.--ERROR 10:46, 7 June 2009 (EDT)

Technopathy

I think we might add a note to See Also, since it's somewhat similar to Eric's ability. He controls people and objects, Micah controls machines. Your thoughts? -- Altes 03:42, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

  • You have a point. I'll agree to that.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 09:36, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

Once Again

I am so sorry to bring this up again but PLEASE,PLEASE can we change the name to Puppet Mastery? :-P I mean, how does adding a Y on the end of a word make it less canon? Forgive me if I sounded angry on that previous sentence, but I'm just curious. Haha--Ellis 17:15, 29 October 2009 (EDT)

  • We have a near-cannon source that states his ability as "Puppet master", there's no reason to doubt this - Jenx222 | U / T / C 17:23, 29 October 2009 (EDT)
    • And another near-canon source lists Peter's power as "empathic mimcry". While unlikely, there could be a typo in Doyle's power, too. Green.gif AltesUTC CH

Sylar

Should we add Sylar in holders of this ability?-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 11:27, 25 November 2009 (EST)

  • Yes. It was confirmed by Heroes Interactive. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:45, 25 November 2009 (EST)
    • They didn't confirm it, they say that it was SIMILAR: * In this scene, Sylar is demonstrating an ability similar to which other character?

S. Meredith T. Elle U. Doyle Reply S,T, or U.

> U

* Right on! Doyle the Puppetmaster can control the movements of others, locking them into place. (Similar doesn't mean he got puppet master.)-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 11:38, 25 November 2009 (EST)
  • Check out the discussion at Talk:Examples of puppet master. It was confirmed in a message that we don't transcribe (but I transcribed on the discussion page above because I thought it would be helpful and is significant). -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 13:22, 25 November 2009 (EST)

Unconfirmed

Should we add Sylar's victim at the unconfirmed list of holders of this ability? (He didn't kill Eric, so there must being someone else with this ability)-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 13:32, 25 November 2009 (EST)

  • No, there is no evidence he took his "invasive" approach, but there is a chance he took it from eric empathicly. That's what I think since sylar asked eric if he could "control" him. This comment has been discussed before for renaming eric's ability, but I don't think anyone has thought of it as being the empathic link to doyle, both sylar and doyle wanted to be in control, so sylar would have got it from him. Chances are he got it from doyle (although speculative) but it is much more speculative to say that someone else had this ability and he killed them for it. --mc_hammark 13:40, 25 November 2009 (EST)
    • Even if he didn't kill, the person with this ability is still unconfirmed.-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 13:42, 25 November 2009 (EST)
      • That's assuming that he got it from another person. On his page it should simply say source unknown, like Peter's page with super speed. --mc_hammark 13:46, 25 November 2009 (EST)
        • Actaully, i never got that one with peter's super speed, didn't he got it from future Daphne while fighting?-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 13:48, 25 November 2009 (EST)
          • Empathic mimicry allows him to absorb the abilities of any evolved human around him. He was around a bystander in the future street before he was around daphne, but we don't know which one he absorbed it from. It could have even been someone we didn't see offscreen from season one or basically at any point in time, but he didn't know it and only used it when he saw daphne doing it. --mc_hammark 13:52, 25 November 2009 (EST)
            • I dont think Sylar has this ability, i read the wrong answer at the Heroes_Interactive:Thanksgiving but there still isn't really evidence. They really need to say: Sylar user Puppet master to control Angela and Peter. If we ever are able to get an interview with someone who has something to do with this ability, we should ask if Sylar got this ability-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 13:57, 25 November 2009 (EST)
              • My personal opinion is that it's been confirmed through a reliable avenue...but I asked Adam and Kay anyway. I worded the question in an open-ended way: "What ability did Sylar use to hold Peter and Angela at the dinner table?" -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:15, 25 November 2009 (EST)
                • So we just have to wait for an answer?-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 14:22, 25 November 2009 (EST)
                  • To me it's clear Sylar has this ability. It's the same way Eric uses it - there's no doubt. --Powermimic 04:57, 30 November 2009 (EST)
                    • Adam Armus confirmed that Sylar uses TK and NOT puppet master. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 09:52, 30 November 2009 (EST)
                      • The way it's worded above it sounds as though he uses TK and not puppet master, but he has puppet master; the same way he has disintegration. --mc_hammark 12:17, 30 November 2009 (EST)
                        • No he hasn't (confirmed by Adam that he used TK).-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 12:20, 30 November 2009 (EST)
                          • You misunderstood me there. What I'm saying is that the way it's worded it sounds as though Adam is saying he has puppet master, but chooses to use tk. I'm not saying that he definitely does have puppet master. --mc_hammark 12:24, 30 November 2009 (EST)

Arg

The new iStory, which I thought would help clear things up about his power only seems to be making his power more confusing. He controlled a waiter, forcing him to approach their table, which seems a little too much for it to be telekinesis, yet he claims he can control the movement of the ball in the game operators sideshow, which sounds a lot like telekinesis. I'm not enjoying the whole "control the motor functions of people and objects" idea, as it doesn't seem to make any sense. What does everyone think?--PJDEP 16:32, 15 December 2009 (EST)

  • I agree, i dont like it either. But it isn't TK, i bet he cant slice open someone's skull.-- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 16:36, 15 December 2009 (EST)
    • Would make for quite an ability name though, kinesikinesis, he "moves movement". Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 17:16, 15 December 2009 (EST)
      • I have got to say, that's definitely my favorite ability name.--PJDEP 18:43, 17 December 2009 (EST)

Puppetting

Doyle more or less explicitly calls his ability this in the latest GN (Starting Over). He corrects Joseph on the use of it when he calls him a "controller". Since it's the same rank as the Assignment Tracker, it's an equally valid name as Puppet Master (and lacks all the problems about whether we add a "y"). We can use either one, so what do people prefer? Swm 10:22, 29 December 2009 (EST)

  • Puppeting. Far more better name for this ability.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 10:23, 29 December 2009 (EST)
    • Honestly, they're both equally flawed. "Puppet master" may have a grammatical error but "puppeting" isn't even a real word. I'd rather stick with puppet master.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 10:25, 29 December 2009 (EST)
      • Also, it didn't seem like he was saying his ability name but rather describing the process, like how Claire calls her power "healing" occasionally. An explicit name given in an assignment tracker is better then one given colloquially.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 10:29, 29 December 2009 (EST)
        • If you're gonna say it "isn't even a real word" then that argument is out. Before Steven King invented the word, pyrokinesis was never used before, but now it's in the dictionary. If the workers at Heroes decide to give a brand new word as an ability name, then that's the one we use. --mc_hammark 10:33, 29 December 2009 (EST)
          • That's different, pyrokinesis was created by combining the word pyro (fire) and kinesis (movement), keeping in tradition with names like "telekinesis" or "psychokinesis". Puppeting appear to be a spelling mistake, or just a result of an informal conversation. Also, pyrokinesis doesn't show up in many dictionaries, just a few (for example, my computer seems to insist that it isn't a word).--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 10:48, 29 December 2009 (EST)
      • Puppet master is also a colloquial name, surely? It's more of a title for Doyle then saying anything at all about the ability (much like Bliss and Horror). It didn't read to me like it was a description, because why bother correcting Joseph if it wasn't something specific? Swm 10:35, 29 December 2009 (EST)
        • Also, what if, since this is the official site of heroes, the writers decided to have a look around here and found that puppet master was one thing people were arguing about, so put it in one of the gns. --mc_hammark 10:39, 29 December 2009 (EST)
        • The assignment tracker is far more accurate then a simple, casual discussion. As I said before, he may have been correcting Joseph about how the ability was described, not the ability name itself.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 10:48, 29 December 2009 (EST)
          • But why correct him, both understood what the ability does, what would be the point of the writers adding in joseph getting it wrong and doyle correcting him? --mc_hammark 10:51, 29 December 2009 (EST)
            • Not neccessarily PJ. Look at Jeremy- his AT is far less accurate then the information imparted in the conversations between him and Noah. Surely Eric knows more about his own ability then the Company does? There's no rule which states we have to use their names if others are avaliable. Controlling's also a valid description of Eric's ability (it's what he does- control people), so again, why correct him if not for the name? Unless we have a clear line as to what's an explicit name (and short of him saying "my ability is puppetry" it doesn't get more explicit than this), we'll be arguing about this forever. As far as I see it, what Doyle said is equivelent to saying "No, my ability is not controlling, its puppetting." Hence, it's explicit. Swm 10:55, 29 December 2009 (EST)
              • That's P-Dizzle. Anyway, Jeremy's ability had changed since the Company documented it, so that isn't a good comparison to use. However, as you said, both "controlling" and "puppeting" are descriptions, Puppet master was given explicitly as a name, not just a description of what he does. Also, not everything said about an ability is meant to name it, I really don't think that the writers put in that conversation to rename an ability. As I said earlier, it may have just been small talk. They may have simply wanted Doyle to correct Joseph to look like a smart-ass, similar to how I just told everyone to call me P-Dizzle. I just don't understand why, if they both have spelling or grammatical flaws, and both come from equally ranked sources (supposedly), it needs to be changed. We've gone with the assignment tracker nearly every time, I just don't understand why this situation should be different.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 11:04, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                • I didn't say it needed to be changed. I said we could use either, and asked what people prefer. You were claiming that Assignment Trackers are always more reliable- Jeremy's case proved that wasn't so. I said controlling was a valid description, and therefore there was no need to put in the correction if not for something else. Even if Puppeting is a description, which I doubt, so is Puppet Master, and we've been fine using that, so there's no difference here. And as I said, you can't get much more explicit then what Doyle said. We already use names that aren't "real" words (you yourself pointed out pyrokinesis wasn't on your computer), so Puppet Master's flawed and Puppeting isn't, so they aren't actually equal. My point isn't that this is a special case- I'm saying that we've got the choice of two names, and we should whichever we think is better. Nothing more. Swm 11:10, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                  • The chances of it being grammatically flawed is highly unlikely, most likely, they've invented a new word as a name. I can't ever really recall any small talk on heroes, and especially not in the graphic novels, writers are always saying they wish they could do more, so it is unlikely they would waste a panel with small talk making doyle look like a smart ass. One thing we should be noting is, it's "puppetting", not "puppeting". --mc_hammark 11:13, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                • Jeremy's case only proved that assignment trackers can become outdate, something that clearly hasn't happened with Doyle. And as for the pyrokinesis argument, that word, and others that may not be "real" words have been used in other works, "puppeting" hasn't. All I'm saying is that we should follow a precedent we created, where we use the assignment tracker name regardless of whatever sources there may be. Also, there's never been any small talk on Heroes? Ever? Also, "puppetting" is a word either, so it's not like that changes anything.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 11:16, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                  • Not to my recollection, no, I can't remember any small talk. And just because Heroes is the first to use this name, doesn't make it wrong. I've never before heard of an ability to control the motor functions of everything, so of course, if there's a name for it, it will be a new one. --mc_hammark 11:19, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                    • I dislike the argument that we should use the AT names "because that's what we've always done." If another name is better (if only for not having a grammatical error), and is of the same canon rank, we should use the better name, surely? Swm 11:24, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                      • I do believe it calls for a vote. --mc_hammark 11:25, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                      • There's been plenty of small talk on Heroes, more then half of Claire's conversations with Noah are nothing more then mindless banter. Puppet master isn't a description, it's explictly given as a name for the ability. "Puppeting" is undeniably as description. Also, the argument "Puppet master has a grammatical error, so puppetting is better" doesn't work because puppetting isn't even a real word.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 11:27, 29 December 2009 (EST)
                        • Puppet Master doesn't explictly describe anything. You don't get to what Doyle can do by simply stating "my ability is puppet master". At best, it's a very loose description. Puppetting may or may not be a description, but even if it is, that no longer matters because another descriptive name (Puppet Master) is currently in use. I repeat: Pyrokinesis, et al aren't real words either, and we don't have a problem with using those when they appear in the show's media. Why is there an issue here, then? Swm 11:32, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  • You can continue voting if you want, but I think the assignment tracker is essentially a super-canon source so the name isn't going to change. Although I would like to adjust the name too, my guess is that only an update of the assignment tracker on the AT site, or an assignment tracker appearing in an episode is going to overrule the current name.--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:49, 29 December 2009 (EST)
    • Agreed. Additionally, in regard to Doyle's correction by saying "Puppetting, actually" is likely because "controlling" implies possibly mental control or psychological control as well. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 16:53, 29 December 2009 (EST)
      • We don't know that though. "is likely" just implies speculation. --OutbackZack 17:00, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  • We only use the AT as a source for names, because we felt The Company knew far more about abilities than anyone else who were naming them. However, a case like this has never happen before. The Company's AT of the person versus the actual person. I say that since both names are nearly identical, on the same level of canon, and come from reliable sources that either name would be just fine. We can just use both names and word it as such; Puppet Master (sometimes referred to as "Puppetting"). The argument that the word isn't a real word is flaw. Remember, we document what we see, hear, or read. If that's the word that a GN writer chose to use that's a word that can and should be documented in some form or another. --OutbackZack 16:59, 29 December 2009 (EST)
    • The Company was dedicated to (among other things) categorizing abilities. The Company (and thus, ATs) are substantially better sources of canon names than the users themselves. I would agree that the page should read: Puppet master (sometimes referred to as puppetting)... --Ricard Desi (t,c) 17:04, 29 December 2009 (EST)
      • I agree with this as well. I'm sure people feel that the current name of the ability is more of a "title" name as oppose to a "verb" name, and that "puppetting" would do away with such problem. Personally, I'm happy with the current state of the article since your edit, but I wouldn't oppose the renaming of the ability. --OutbackZack 17:13, 29 December 2009 (EST)
    • OutbackZach is not not completely correct... we were told that the assignment tracker entries were carefully reviewed by the producers before being published, so we trust them more as a source for that reason too. That the Company knew about abilities was also a reason, but it was not the main reason. On a different note, the AT has before overruled what a person called their ability... it depends on the canonicity level of the source, though... see the related gravitational manipulation discussion. Regarding adding 'puppetting' as an alias/redirect for the ability name, I am fine with that.--MiamiVolts (talk) 18:11, 29 December 2009 (EST)
      • So the initial rule that we're establishing is that The Company's AT will trump the person who has the ability when giving said ability a name (as long as the ability is still the same). However, the other name should still be noted on the ability page. Correct? --OutbackZack 18:38, 29 December 2009 (EST)
        • Almost, it's not really a new rule. As stated in the gravitational manipulation discussion, it depends on the canonicity level and explicitness of the source. As was the case with 'lightning', an AT canNOT be trumped by the person who has the ability giving it a name even if it is true both that the person has explicitly named it, and that the naming was done in an episode.--MiamiVolts (talk) 19:29, 29 December 2009 (EST)
          • I don't understand the example of "lightning". Elle (or was Peter? or Caitlin?) called her power "lightning" in an episode but we use "electric manipulation" from the AT, but you said that in these circumstances the AT can be trumped. In the end, I think we simply give preference to anything (profiles, documents, etc) that outright name the power with something like "Ability:____________".--Referos 20:54, 29 December 2009 (EST)
            • Sorry, Referos, you are correct. I had to change can to canNOT in my above comment. Please forgive my typo... Both 'vortex generation' and 'lightning' were names changed by the release of assignment tracker profiles. Vortex generation was an easy decision because the name was derived from a description, and the assignment tracker was an explicit naming. The lightning situation was tougher, cause the ability had been explicitly called lightning by characters in an episode. And although I disagreed with the decision, it was decided to use 'electrical manipulation' over 'lightning' because we had confirmation from TPTB that the assignment tracker was being reviewed by the producers, making it a super-canon/bible-like source.--MiamiVolts (talk) 23:10, 29 December 2009 (EST)
              • I don't remember Elle ever calling her ability lightning. I remember Caitlin calling it "a thousand volts", but that's all. We got "lightning" from Peter, who used that word to "summon" the ability in "Petrified Lightning". Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 16:43, 30 December 2009 (EST)
                • I'm not sure Elle ever did call it lightning, either. However, I'm rather certain it was called lightning aloud in at least one episode... I think Peter called it lightning when talking with Caitlin, not sure of that, but it doesn't really matter at this point.--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2009 (EST)
  • I agree that "puppet master" should be kept, since it was used to outright name the ability. But just a hypothetical example, for curiosity's sake: suppose that Doyle had said "My ability is called 'puppetting'.". How would we proceed?--Referos 19:21, 29 December 2009 (EST)
    • See my above comments.--MiamiVolts (talk) 19:29, 29 December 2009 (EST)
      • Miami, this is just a query, but if the name won't be changing anytime soon can we remove the rename tag?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:24, 29 December 2009 (EST)
        • I think it stays up for at least a few days so everyone will have a chance to give their input. --OutbackZack 22:41, 29 December 2009 (EST)
        • Since there's an unofficial poll going on, I think it's okay to keep the tag up a few more days. Many people are on vacation for the winter holidays and haven't had a chance to comment.--MiamiVolts (talk) 23:23, 29 December 2009 (EST)

Puppetting VS Puppet Master

Puppetting

  1. --mc_hammark 11:26, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  2. --Catalyst · Talk · HL 11:32, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  3. --Swm 11:34, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  4. --Vampirate68 | Talk | Contribs | 11:36, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  5. --Hiroman 16:59, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  6. --Leckie -- Talk 12:16, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  7. --Boom D  9,992  12:35, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  8. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 16:19, 29 December 2009 (EST) it's more elegant.
  9. --Juba 23:28 29 December (CET) it's what he does v. what he is...
  10. --Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 18:55, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  11. --NileQT87 19:50, 29 December 2009 (EST) - Ditto with "what he does vs. what he is". I prefer puppetry (which is even more correct). Puppetting is certainly better than a description of the person instead of the ability. Actually, "puppetting" isn't really a very standard word (Firefox's dictionary doesn't recognize it)--more standard English words are "puppeteering" or "puppetry" ("puppetry" being the only word recognized)! Sometimes basic logic must trump characters speaking in completely slang terms. It's the same thing with the fact that psychometry is in no way the same thing as clairsentience (also, episode beats evolutions) on purely definition terms. Sometimes the dictionary's description of an action that utterly predates the show supersedes some character's slang.
    It was originally going to be puppettry, but I pointed out that if we couldn't change "puppet master" to "puppet mastery", we can't change "puppetting" to "puppetry".--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:23, 29 December 2009 (EST)
    Nearly everything in your argument supports using "puppet master" as opposed to "puppetting". Doyle is not exactly an "expert source". --Ricard Desi (t,c) 20:25, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  12. --daevon 21:24, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  13. --Evil Maldini 16:14, 30 December 2009 (EST)
  14. --Fr0z3nB0nes 5:46, 31 December 2009 (EST): I would prefer Puppeteering rather that puppetting, but it is better than puppet master.
  15. --Darkfiremaster13 00:52, 2 January 2010 (EST)
  16. --Gibbeynator 07:34, 6 January 2010 (EST)
  17. ----ERROR 21:30, 15 January 2010 (EST) For all reasons stated above. Also, I wouldn't use a canon source that has poor grammar. I would use a variation of it, like "puppetry," "puppetting," or "puppeteering."

Puppet Master

  1. --PJDEP - Need further explanation? 11:27, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  2. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 12:07, 29 December 2009 (EST) (for two reasons. 1) ATs have always been assumed a "slightly higher" level of canon than the other near-canon sources. 2) "Puppetting, technically" can still be a reference to his ability as "puppet master(y)". He wouldn't say "Puppet mastering, technically".)
  3. ---- Yoshi | Talk | Contributions 17:44, 29 December 2009 (EST)
  4. ATs give scientific names for abilities. Monica's ability was named both muscle mimicry and adoptive muscle memory in the episodes, but we use AMM because it was given by Mohinder, a scientist. And "puppetting" is a description. Green.gif AltesUTC CH 06:44, 30 December 2009 (EST)

How I believe this ability works

I noticed that a lot of people don't like this ability because it can't be explained. I further noticed somewhere that someone called it a "magical" power. Here's my 2 cents. As I understand it from the AT profile diagram, Doyle can attach "mental strings" to people and objects. With those strings he can push and pull things, like pull a door shut, or push someone's hands together. That's what you do when you play with a puppet, you push (or ease) the strings or pull them to make the puppet do something. With that said, nowhere would the ability allow him to pin someone up against the wall, slice someone's head open, or make things fly around. Hence why it's so different from telekineses. Now if you wanted to speak in terms of evolution theory for the ability; it's possible that over the thousands of years that this ability evolved from telekineses. Which is why they're somewhat similar. --OutbackZack 14:28, 31 December 2009 (EST)

  • That's actually a pretty good explanation Zack, I'm impressed. He'd have to be able to curve these strings, however, in order to close the door like he did in Nowhere Man. That's plausible though, and I'm glad someone finally came up with a logical explanation.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 14:47, 31 December 2009 (EST)
    • I also think thats a pretty good explanation. Only, I think telekinesis would have evolved from this rather than the other way round, as it allows full mental manipulation rather than by only mental strings.--Fr0z3nB0nes 21:40, 31 December 2009 (EST)
      • The reason I had it the other way around is because Puppet Master comes off as a more a well defined ability. Whereas telekineses is all over the board. I actually figured that some of the genes for telekineses might be present in flight, levitation, disintegration, Trevor's ability, etc. Again, it's just good'o fan boy theories. --OutbackZack 14:11, 1 January 2010 (EST)
  • One inconsistency, how did he make Michael activate his lasers if he creates mental strings?--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:20, 6 January 2010 (EST)
    • I'm sure there's he could pulled to make it go off. Something biological. --OutbackZack 20:33, 6 January 2010 (EST)
      • You just gave me an image of a pull-string (the kind you pull on dolls to make them talk) in the back of Michael's brain. In all seriousness however, I suppose he could have lassoed an electrical impulse or something.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:36, 6 January 2010 (EST)

Doubt

Nothing conclusive, but the last two episodes seem to imply that Sylar doesn't have puppet master. My reason for this is, after he arrived at the carnival and started to cut Samuel, Samuel says "You could have killed Doyle, you didn't" and Sylar responds "Oh, I'll get to him...." and then makes references to a feast and how the carnies will make him more powerful. He may have simply wanted to kill Doyle for the hell of it, but when combined with the feast reference, it seems like he wants to acquire Doyle's ability, which would obviously be redundant if he already had it. Again, nothing that totally excludes Sylar from this ability, but definitely something to consider.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 16:23, 5 January 2010 (EST)

  • I don't think thats the reason for killing doyle, i personally think he has pm, altought i'm not saying it is so!

But its like you said, its hard to know what he has :p with all the commotion around his ability. -- (WaterRatj) 21:09, 6 January 2010 (EST)

Motion Manipulation

Looks like a better name to me :P --Ritamiller 14:19, 7 January 2010 (EST)

Kinesikinesis...--ERROR 21:33, 15 January 2010 (EST)

I said that last month, but only as a joke, please do not use it. Intuitive Empath - Talk - Contributions 10:34, 16 January 2010 (EST)

Creations

Guys, we have a near-canon source for puppet master and a near-canon description for puppetting. Stop trying to invent new names for the ability, we're not overturning near-canon sources for them. --Ricard Desi (t,c) 20:23, 12 January 2010 (EST)

  • I think we may need a new template on the top of all of the discussion pages for abilities that asks the user to examine the naming conventions and why the current name was chosen before suggesting new name changes.--PJDEP - Need further explanation? 20:28, 12 January 2010 (EST)

Any chance of a rename?

It hasn't been discussed for a while and I've been curious about the rename tab on the ability name. So..any chance of a rename for the ability to either 'Puppetting' or 'Puppet Mastery'? Or would all prefer to let it stay the same? Nobody seems interested anymore for a rename.--Realistic

  • If we look at the poll above "Puppetting" have more votes, so if we'll change the name I think it would be "Puppetting". But if we're still basing on AT it will stay the same --Dark Master 07:01, 31 January 2010 (EST)
    • We use the name that was explicitly given to us. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 11:51, 31 January 2010 (EST)
      • And that is...Puppet Master or Puppetting? Both seems to be explicitly-given enough--Realistic

Heat generation

Ok. I've figured out a way we can re-name it to puppet mastery. Mrs Comey listed next to "heat generator". From this canon source we derived that her ability is "heat generation". Eric is listed next to "puppet master". So, given that we can derive "heat generation" from "heat generator", why can't we derive "puppet mastery" from "puppet master"? --mc_hammark 13:15, 1 March 2010 (EST)

  • I was just thinking the same when I was looking at Edgar's list. It would definitely be a better name!--Imax99 15:35, 1 March 2010 (EST)
  • Because the current name was given explictly, and Mrs Comey has no contradicting source. The fact is, if they wanted to call the ability "puppet mastery", they would have done so.--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 15:37, 1 March 2010 (EST)
    • I actually have another point but I'll refrain from saying it, lest I incur the wrath of the Heroes Wiki community....--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 15:41, 1 March 2010 (EST)
      • No, no, please, tell us. We promise to be gentle. --mc_hammark 18:31, 2 March 2010 (EST)
  • This ability has been explicitly named "puppet master" in the Assignment Tracker 2.0 field for "Unique Ability" section. It has been explicitly named in this diagram. It was named the same thing in Edgar's list. I don't know of any place where it was called "puppet mastery". If there is a place, it is certainly not as explicit as any of the three places we have seen it consistently named the same thing. I personally prefer the name "puppet mastery", but it's not about my personal preference. The name "puppet master", for whatever reason the writers have chosen, has been given to us on a number of occasions, and it's the name we should use. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 00:17, 4 March 2010 (EST)
    • We can derive heat generation from heat generator then?--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 00:57, 4 March 2010 (EST)
      • Edgar's list is a mix of names of abilities, descriptions of abilities, and descriptions of people. If, say, and Assignment Tracker were to be released about Mrs. Comey, and it were to name her ability "heat generator" (Lord help us!), then that's what we would call her ability. But since we have no other source for the name of her ability, we can use logic to say that "heat generator" refers to Mrs. Comey and not her ability. I wish we could do the same for Doyle's ability, but we can't. We've been given an explicit name for his ability in two other places, and we've never been given another explicit name for it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:27, 4 March 2010 (EST)
        • Right, right. I just wanted to make sure I didn't make a mistake when I renamed her ability.--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 17:09, 4 March 2010 (EST)

"Puppet Master" just seems like a undeveloped form of telekinesis now that it moves objects.--Boycool42 21:39, 14 March 2010 (EDT)

  • Someone came up with a theory that it was like "string telekinesis"; Doyle attaches mental strings to pull them about (like a puppet master, get it? :P)--PJDEP - Talk - Polls and Opinions 21:40, 14 March 2010 (EDT)