Talk:Puppet master/Archive 1

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Name

I think we should call it physical manipulation because that is exactly what it is.

No. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 22:06, 16 November 2008 (EST)

User:Shadowulf1 13:33, 24 October 2008 (EDT) I think it should be called Puppetry, Nervous System Manipulation, Neurological Manipulation, Body Domination or Motor Control. Besides, Puppet Master would best suit the person possessing this ability, not the ability itself...

I vote for puppetry or some derivation of puppetry. They all but screamed it at us in the last scene. --Pyramidhead 00:48, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

  • True, but just puppetry might not be specific enough.--Aburu 00:51, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Perhaps body manipulation or movement control--Watchmaker 01:03, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

  • "Muscle manipulation""?--Matchu 01:04, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Might sound weird, but I think that might be too specific. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but I think that just controlling someone's muscles would allow you to bend their arms. Wouldn't you need to control their bones and nerves as well?--Aburu 01:07, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
      • I think body puppetry is specific enough and it's general enough to allow him to control activation of another person's ability (which muscle manipulation and movement control don't necessarily allow). We should get confirmation of that if he activates Meredith ability in the next episode.--MiamiVolts (talk) 02:50, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
      • ...you don't use your bones or nerves to move your body. Bones are for structural support and nerves are for sensory input. Muscle manipulation is thus an effective name, but I feel puppetry both cleanly describes the action (as someone controlling a marionette) and how Eric Doyle himself sees it. Ricard Desi 10:15, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
  • I can confirm that Eric's ability is Mind control,though no one is going to believe me. He control's the person's mind though not effecting their thoughts nor emotions. It's similar to telepathy though Eric controls the brain's body reponses rather than thoughts. If you check my older edits on Eric Doyle you`ll find that i called him the puppetmaster several weeks ago. His ability is not body manipulation as he does not control the body nor movement. He stimulates the brain in order to achive control. MOST IMPORTANT: With his ability to control the mind's bodily reponses he's able to activate one's ability and this has been confirmed within the Graphic Novel when he had a confrontation with Michael.--ACDC1989 06:25, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • ACDC, you're speaking as an authority on the subject. Where are you getting your information? Please be specific. Thanks! -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 06:42, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Hey Ryan. Well my cousin gave me a few snippets of information on the subject. I know that's not specific but it's very true. Ryan remember when Eric used his ability on Michael? He activated it. As i said above Eric does not control the muscle or nerve etc. He controls their mind which is how he was able to activate his ability. I implore you to make it Mind control as it is. It's almost as if he becomes one with his opponent, in terms of mind collaboration. He ability is one of force. It all happens within the brain. Also it should not be named puppetry as, although he is a puppet collector and nicknamed the Puppetmaster, the mere activation of Michael's ability contradicts it. His ability of mind control literally seizes control of the minds (though not like telepathy) of the victims to the point where their bodies come under direct control so that they become puppets or slaves to Eric. He's similar to the likes of Professor X or even the Mad Hatter in terms of comic connections. --ACDC1989 07:35, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
      • As what Wikipedia says: "Mind control is a broad range of psychological tactics able to subvert an individual's control of his own thinking, behavior, emotions, or decisions. The concept is closely related to hypnosis[citation needed][dubious – discuss], but differs in practical approach". This pretty much sums it up, i vote for Mind Control. --Futurepeter 11:19, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Hey Futurepeter. Thanks for agreeing. As i said above while descrbing Eric's ability "His ability of mind control literally seizes control of the minds (though not like telepathy) of the victims to the point where their bodies come under direct control so that they become puppets or slaves to Eric." However the definiton you provided is not correct to Eric's entirely as it supports Matt and Maury's advanced telepathy more than Eric's mind control as you stated in terms of the practical approach. Eric's ability is indeed Mind control.--ACDC1989 12:21, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • "Mind control" makes the most sense to me. I don't think it would hurt to wait until next week to rename it, though. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:58, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
      • I agree too that "mind control" is probably the best description and is the common name of the ability. Hopefully we'll get an assignment tracker to support that. However, I think the second option of body puppetry remains intact since he's a puppet master. Was there anything on Doyle's profile that Meredith was holding?--MiamiVolts (talk) 13:17, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Hey, Ryan. Always a pleasure to see your posts. Indeed, as i said above, Mind Control would be the most prefered title as he is basically controling the mind though not emotions or thoughts as i said above. Apart from that the name is very common hence it won't cause a massive amount of confusion. Thanks.--ACDC1989 15:11, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I don't have a problem with Mind Control, but why does forcing Michael to activate his ability discount Puppetry? Only reason I like Puppetry a little more than Mind Control is because it seems Eric has to pantomime the motions of his victim (puppet) to use his ability. GabrielPetrelli 16:18, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Yeah, that's also part of why I'm leaning more towards body puppetry right now, but the main reason is cause his puppetry is mentioned on screen, and the terminology "mind control" is not.--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:27, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
        • Agreed. Also, I wasn't suggesting just plain Puppetry, but perhaps a variation like you and the OP suggested. Also, I don't see much of a difference between *controlling someone's brain's control over their muscle response* and *controlling someone's muscles*. The latter suggests the ability to override the messages sent by the target's brain to their own body.GabrielPetrelli 16:30, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
          • Well, accessing an ability is more likely the direct responsibility of the brain rather than the muscles. Even so, I can see "body puppetry" encompassing ability control as well. I added the word "body" to denote that it's not simple puppetry but is control over a person's body.--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:39, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
            • Noted on both counts. I like Body Puppetry. GabrielPetrelli 16:42, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
              • I like Body Puppetry as well. To me it seems that if Eric's ability was truly "Mind Control" then Meredith would not have been able to speak, and nor would Claire in the promo. The victims are still apparently able to think for themselves. --Aburu 19:17, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
  • I dislike "mind control" as it implies total psychological control of the target, not just physical. In the scene with Meredith, it looks to me as though she is aware of what Eric is doing to her, and attempting to stop it, but is unable to. It seems to me that Eric's ability can control the brain's impulses to move muscles, but not the psychological/emotional parts of the brain which would constitute total "mind control." DismantleRepair 20:38, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
  • They're a little wordy, but we could try Neurological Manipulation or Neurological Control, which seem to fit all the descriptions here but still leave things open to a degree of interpretation. Thoughts? ~~ Darmenos 21:30, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
    • To me that seems way too vague because that seems to say that the Haitian's ability and Matt's ability could fit under here too if you use Neurological Manipulation or Neurological Control --Rayhond 22:47, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
      • I think that some form of puppetry will be the best way to describe this since Doyle has to move in order to physically move the individual, but the person's body moves the same way Doyle's hands/body does. In the GN Doyle, he utilizes Michael's ability against himself, so this has to be included somehow, but I think ultimately, we're going to find out a lot more next week.--Bob (talk) 22:49, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Yes, I suppose it's a bit too vague. I say we leave it as is 'till next week's episode, since the trailer shows a situation involving him. Darmenos 22:03, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Clearly you didn't read my previous posts. Eric controls the mind but not in the way Matt, Peter or Maury control it. It is not neurological manipulation/control as that would mean he could control the paths of the brain the way Matt, Peter and Maury can. In many of the comics i have read those with Mind Control don't have to control thoughts, i know a few who only control physical actions. It's all to do with the mind. ASK YOURSELF THIS: If it's Puppetry how on earth did Eric activate Michael's ability? That is not puppetry. Controlling abilities start within the brain, hence Sylar examining brains, so he controlled that part partially.--ACDC1989 06:00, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Where's the evidence though? --Matchu 06:01, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • The evidence lies in logic. Have you read X-Men comics? If it is puppetry Eric could only control physical movements. BUT he activated Michael's ability which suggests that he had mind control in order to know how to use it. How can you use an ability if you only have physical control? There is a part of the brain that controls movement hence Mind control... --ACDC1989 06:04, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Logic isn't evidence. It's logical that Michael shouldn't be hurt by his own powers (see Meredith, Ted etc etc) but the poor guy is. Nor is looking at other comics; yes Heroes is certainly influenced by them but by no means is it working to the same rules. Mind Control implies too much, such as the effected person wouldn't be able to speak. Another note being we, the viewer/reader, don't really know how powers work. Sylar thinks it's all to do with the brain, whilst Mohinder's looking in adrenalin.--Matchu 06:09, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • I seriously think you've not listed to what i've just said. Starting with your last comment. Mohinder belives that abilities start within the blood/adrenal glands but you control them with your higher brain function. I can't explain why Michael is not immune to his ability or that Elle is not immune to certain of her offensive attacks. Mind control doesn't imply much, telepathy implies much. Mind control implies the control minds of the victims to the point where their bodies come under direct control. --ACDC1989 06:13, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I could accuse you of the same *shrugs* "Mind Control implies too much, such as the effected person wouldn't be able to speak.". We still don't know enough about abilities to comment fully on how they're activated except to say both adrenalin and the brain play a part.
  • "...the effected person wouldn't be able to speak." Where on earth did you get this from? Assumption no doubt.--ACDC1989 06:18, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Your argument is an assumption that Eric would have mental control over the other person. If we accept you're right, then stopping someone from speaking would surely be as easy as activating their ability, since both things lie in the brain. --Matchu 06:20, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Mind control to some degree, yes. You can't just activate someone's ability without looking into their mind. Ask me how did Peter, when in Ireland, did not know how to use his abilities? He forgot them, hence the mind and brain! Bingo! Jackpot! Explain that. How do you know Eric didn't want to control her from speaking? Perhaps he just wished to control her appendages? --ACDC1989 06:24, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Because when she did speak, he shut her up? --Matchu 06:26, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Yes but Eric Doyle has obvious got some psychological issues. Perhaps he wanted her to be curtious and abiding?--ACDC1989 07:01, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
    • LOL, now we're just getting into more speculation! :) --Matchu 07:04, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Note: According to the NBC blurb for the next episode, Doyle's ability is to "take mental and physical control of others." Chrisyu357 08:33, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

I think they should change the definition of his ability to being able to make others replicate his movements which is a more accurate,based on what we've seen so far, definition of his power.(Joe Tebbutt)

  • This one is pretty hard to call. He certainly didn't seem to be controlling Meredith's thoughts, only her actions, so I might lean toward something like Body Control. On the other hand, there's definitely a puppet theme going on with this guy, so we might end up with something like Puppetry via a canon reference. --Ted C 14:24, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
  • The problem with naming this powers is that every name we consider ends up being an umbrella term that leaves things open for speculation, when we're capable of finding a name that's not an umbrella term, we'll have his power, if not, I guess we wait for the assignment tracker. As far as I can see, Puppetry is the most accurate name, even if it's not very scientific. The best I can come up with is Induced mimicry. Intuitive Empath 14:39, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I've been liking "puppetry" more and more...but I think it'd be a good idea to wait another week to name it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:51, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Agreed and agreed. (Admin 14:54, 15 October 2008 (EDT))
  • Chris stated above: "According to the NBC blurb for the next episode, Doyle's ability is to take mental and physical control of others." I told you. It's not just physical control, he controls part of the brain as well! Hence it should be classed as Mind control. Puppetry is a bad choice in my opinion because it's vague When you think of a puppet you think of bodily control not mental. Mind control is better suited. --ACDC1989 11:03, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
    • You're arguing that "Puppetry" ignores the mental control aspect of his power. "Mind Control" seemingly ignores the physical control aspect. Body/Mind Puppetry anyone? GabrielPetrelli 11:24, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Another note: So far, we haven't seen any sign of Eric being able to control one's thoughts. That's why the "mind" portion seems weak. I'm giving the NBC blurb the benefit of the doubt when it mentions both, until we know the canonical name. GabrielPetrelli 11:27, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
        • Reflecting on it more (the Mind Control spell in World of Warcraft, for example), Mind Control could very well be the name they officially use in the show later on. Since we'll know a lot more about his power after this Monday, I'd just wait until then to make any decisions. We'll have to see how they take into account: the "puppet"-like requirement of his ability, and the fact that the victims keep control of their *thoughts* (if not actions). Should be an interesting episode. GabrielPetrelli 11:37, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Body puppetry seems like the best suited name for what this ability appears to be. but like many have said, we still do not know exactly how it works or what it controls, i.e. the body or the mind, because it could perfectly be that Eric controls the body's actions via the target's mind, and it looks like that's the most logical way of using this ability; something like Mind Control could even be the official name, yes. Anyhow, the name should reflect what I see as 2 sides of the ability: the user's mind and the target's body... something like Body Telepathy or Telepathyc Puppetry (I like the latter, by the way). Opinions on this? --Elchafa 12:44, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
        • As I said above, one possibility is Induced mimicry, it's not that speculative, and as far as we know, it's fairly accurate. Intuitive Empath 18:47, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
          • ACDC- I hope this doesn't sound rude, but the ability WILL NOT be listed as Mind Control unless thats what they say in a canon source. The term just does not do a good job of describing this ability as we have seen it so far. And I'm sorry, but your cousin isnt a good source. Hes speculating like the rest of us. I'm putting my vote in for Puppetry and have a good feeling in the next episode they will probably even blatantly call it this. --Action Figure 14:21, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Intriguing. Action Figure i don't mean to be rude but have you read what NBC published for the synopsis for the upcoming Heroes episode? "...Meanwhile, Claire and her mother Sandra attempt to free Meredith from the thrall of escaped Villain Doyle, who has the ability to take mental and physical control of others. He controls the mind as well as the body. His ability is to control the part of the mind which causes physical movement with regard to the muscles. Hence Mind control is the best and most suitable name. --ACDC1989 15:40, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
    • NBC's blurbs can be inaccurate, and they're written by an NBC staffer, not from the Heroes staff. So it's not a source to use at all. As I said before, right now, it's important to get an accurate name, so let's wait for the next episode. Hell, it's been almost a year since we've seen Alejandro's ability, and we haven't found a suitable, accurate name for it that isn't speculative.--Bob (talk) 15:49, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Thanks, Bob. I agree but i personally don't think Alejandro had an ability. He has achieved the same things Sylar and Mohinder did. --ACDC1989 16:03, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
    • The CBR interviews with Aron Coleite and Joe Pokaski confirmed that Alejandro did have an ability (forget specifically which week). That doesn't really belong here though. The point I was making is that accuracy is what's important, so we can wait a week. After next week, we should find out more about it (hopefully we'll here an on-air description or get an AT 2.0 tracker on him online that will give us a specific name.--Bob (talk) 16:15, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
  • I want to bring attention back to Puppetry. It's a simple name, but it's perfectly descriptive of what it is. They don't necessarily have to move how he moves, he specifically controls each part of them, like a puppet. The abilities are a null point, as a Puppeteer can control every aspect of his puppet (for special things they could add a button or an extra string.) He turned Sandra around by spinning his finger, can snap lips shut, and generally controls the person like a puppet, so if not "Puppetry", "Body control/Manipulation", but the former is far more appropriate.--Riddler 22:48, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I personally like puppetry as well. It seems to me to be the effect they were going for. (Admin 10:36, 21 October 2008 (EDT))
  • As an effort to disprove "Mind Control", note that when Doyle forces Claire to close her mouth, he does not prevent her, mentally, from trying to speak. She is very clearly struggling against it and trying to force words out. Try yelling without opening your mouth. If it was mind control, he could simply force her to not speak. Every action Doyle performed was strictly physical, and "mind control" is FAR too vague a description, even if he has forced someone to use their ability (it could be as simple as strongly tensing up Michael's fingers, causing a discharge). "Puppetry" (moreso than "Induced Mimicry", as Doyle is not forced to perform an action to have someone mimic it) describes perfectly what Doyle does. Ricard Desi 10:23, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Induced Mimicry doesn't imply Eric has to perform the actions of others, what it does imply is that Eric induces other people to mimic his actions. Intuitive Empath 12:05, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Exactly. I worded it poorly, but what I was getting at is that while sometimes he moves his own body and has someone else mimic the motion (eating in the last scene in Angels and Monsters, for example), he does not necessarily have to move to make someone else move. Ricard Desi 12:44, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
        • I think the ability should be changed to Human Puppetry. It seems more of a total discrption of what he can do. Or even Physical Puppetry. All that is certian is that puppetry should be in the title somewhere.

I don't like Puppet Master - that sounds more like a title than the ability - Puppetry is much more suitable. I don't like Mind Control, since their not in a hynotic state - they can still know what their doing, and move their face and eyes. I say Puppetry or some sort of 'Muscle Manipulation' - Rybo5000

  • I'm not a big fan of the name either...but unfortunately it's not up for discussion unless the power is given an explicit name in another canon or near-canon source... -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 07:35, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

I personally think that this ability should be called Motion Manipulation. The name is self explanatory to the ability's function -- Catalyst 20:55, 20 January 2009 (EDT)

  • How about the Greek name for the ability, Androkenisis, Andro meaning man (as in android) and kenisis meaning move. It seems to me that the puppet master's abilities are similar to that of one with telekenisis (moving things from afar), but only for humans. Koris94 14:01, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

Same as Persuasion

Isn't this ability the same as persuasion? Only more enhanced so that he doesn't have to speak? I hope that in the next episode this can be sorted out a bit furture... Would prevent us from creating double articles. Another supporting fact. In the Graphic novel:Doyle they also make a reference to Eden. Out of all the characters they bring up Eden. In the story he hears about Eden's death, and some how he feels sorry. mmmmhhhhhh maybe because they shared the same ability? --DarthYotho 16:48, October 15, 2008

  • I considered that possibility, but I figured the idea of trying to lump them together at this point wouldn't go well given past attempts. So I'm personally content to wait at least until next week where we see more of him or hopefully are given an assignment tracker. I wouldn't be surprised if his tracker said "Persuasion" personally. (Admin 16:51, 15 October 2008 (EDT))
  • I wouldn't like his ability to be listed as Persuasion, that's Eden's power, and it works on a different way, anyone else noticed the trend of new powers that achieve the same results and effects as old powers, but through different means? Intuitive Empath 18:19, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

Suggesting - Mental Domination

i think mental domination rather than control or manipulation. it seems as if he dominates their mental faculties thereby wresting control from the target/victim. shown in the fact that Meredith was able to 'talk smack' but could take no physical actions against Eric.

  • I was thinking the same thing. When he shut Claire up, you could clearly see her trying to take control again to talk. "Mental Domination" is a very good name for this. OmniScience

Image

Hello my fellow peeps of the Heroes Wiki, just wanted to let you know I changed the image to something that is more informative on the ability TheEvilNoob 14:16, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

  • I'm going to revert it for the following reasons: first, it's from a GN, whereas we've seen it demonstrated in an episode; it's not the standard size; we'll have a better image on Monday when we see him use it more.--Bob (talk) 14:17, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
    • But the other one is just him and Meredith kissing TheEvilNoob 14:20, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
      • There's a lot of other good images to choose from at Category:Images from Angels and Monsters. I like the one of them kissing, but the one of Meredith where you can see Doyle's hand is also nice. The one of Doyle closing Meredith's mouth by "pinching" his fingers is also nice, though it's a bit of a different direction we'd be going in. Though I do think the kissing image is the coolest. Bob is right, though, if we wait two or three more days, we'll get a different image, I'm sure. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 14:23, 18 October 2008 (EDT)
        • Oh I get it, dang you guys are right then TheEvilNoob 14:51, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

Quick Observation

Any else notice the similarity between Eric's ability and one mentioned on the map as an "N/A". The map says "Subject is able to manipulate the nervous system, causing major pain and also has the ability to take bodily control of one or more people." We haven't seen Eric cause 'major pain'... but this ability sounds very similar to Eric's. Can we derive a name from this or is it just a little too obscure? Seb.gwirionyn 23:08, 20 October 2008 (EDT)

Assignment tracker

Looks like Eric's assignment tracker should be out soon. A password beginning with ED was in the latest graphic novel.--MiamiVolts (talk) 11:24, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

  • It's taking quite some time for the assignment tracker to come out don't you think? Intuitive Empath 17:31, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
    • That happens sometimes. The tracker isn't always ready at the time the password comes out. We've had to wait a few days sometimes.--MiamiVolts (talk) 18:14, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

Puppet Master... oh my.

I may vomit.--Riddler 00:47, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

  • My thoughts exactly. I can see why your first reaction was to undo the change :P --Aburu 00:48, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
    • how about a slight change to "Puppet Mastery", so it describes the ability and not the person with the ability? Ehsteve23 03:35, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
      • I changed it back to the way it was because the discussion wasn't over. We should first come up with a proper name and then change it. -- Futurepeter 05:44, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
        • I'm pretty sure that the Assignment Tracker, since it is number 2 on the naming convention, outweighs fan discussion.--Aburu 06:51, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
          • Exactly right, Aburu. It may not be the best name (I would have preferred "puppetry" or even the more grammatically correct "puppet mastery") but it's the name given to us, so we use it. Unless another explicit name is given somewhere else, we'll stick with "puppet master". -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 07:12, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

Names

  • I did a little research on wikipedia, came up with the following names:

Puppet Master (or Puppet Mastery) which is on the Assignment Tracker. Variations on this are: Puppetry or Body Puppetry
Mind control is a broad range of psychological tactics able to subvert an individual's control of his own thinking, behavior, emotions, or decisions.
Body modification (or body alteration) is the permanent or semi-permanent deliberate altering of the human body for non-medical reasons, such as: sexual enhancement; a rite of passage; aesthetic reasons; denoting affiliation, trust and loyalty; religious reasons; mystical affiliations; shock value; and self-expression.[1].
Muscle manipulation
Movement manipulation or body manipulation

Since Puppet Master (or Puppet Mastery) is on the tracker, i vote for Puppet Mastery or Puppetry.

  • Why are we discussing names or even discussing voting? The name was given to us in the assignment tracker. As much as people might not like the name, it's the name the Company gave to his ability--and they are better experts than any of us. We will be keeping "puppet master". The only thing that means is that we might have to finagle how we write his ability name in narrative texts. For instance, it would be grammatically incorrect, as far as I understand, to say "Eric has the ability of puppet master." Something like "Eric is a puppet master" or "Eric has the ability of [[puppet master]]y" would work fine, I'd imagine. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 07:12, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Okay, i don't agree with it, but i'll go with it Ryan. -- Futurepeter 08:04, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Yeah, I don't agree with the name (purely from a grammatical standpoint), but I'll go with it also. It's not wrong, and our job is not to necessarily choose the best name, but to chronicle what's been given to us. If no name were given, that'd be a different story. But the writers know what they're doing, and they've given us a specific name, so we record it and use it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 10:42, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
    • The Tracker also gave Canfield "gravitational manipulation", which is entirely wrong. "Puppet Master" is a hideous name for this ability. At the very least make it a "skill-noun" and not a "role-noun" ("Puppetry" or "Puppetmastery", as opposed to "Puppet Master") Ricard Desi 13:39, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

Why not just use "Puppetry" as Title and "Puppet Master" as "Also Referred as" in the description

  • Use "Puppetry" or something as a Title, and "Puppet master" as "Also Known As" in the description ?? --NiveKJ13 13:44, October 22, 2008
    • For anyone who doesn't understand the "Puppet Master" thing here's the explanation. The Assignment Tracker is a canon source, which is made by the writers. They no more then us anyway, so we stick with it even if we don't like it. --Futurepeter 13:46, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I'm just saying, use "Puppetry" for Title, but put "Puppet Master" as a "Also referred as" in the description. Then, nothing's lost..the info's still there. --NiveKJ13 13:50, October 22, 2008
      • Yeah i would like to see that too.. --Futurepeter 13:50, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
  • Designating names for the abilities has historically been one of the most difficult and contentious decision processes we have here. Everyone has their own opinion as to what an ability should be named. Since we can only have one name for the ability (since it's the title of the article and what we call it in other places), we needed a deterministic approach that could be applied each time a new ability was observed that would yield a consistent outcome. That need resulted in the naming convention we use here which assigns a name for an ability based mostly on how canonical the source of information is. This way virtually anyone could apply the naming convention to a given ability and wind up with the same name each time. Since "puppet master" was the name of the ability on the assignment tracker, it becomes the name of the ability here. If someone were to explicitly name it on the show itself or if they showed a different case file or assignment tracker entry, then it would get updated to reflect what was seen on the show since it's more canonical. To address part of your question specifically, we don't use "also known as" because then every ability would have a list of aliases that just reflected what some people thought it should be called. We just stick to the info given to us by the show to keep everything consistent and organized. (Admin 13:52, 22 October 2008 (EDT))
    • To expound upon part of what Admin was saying, the Assignment Tracker is NOT a canon source. The entries that appeared on the show were canon, but those that have only been listed in Heroes Evolutions are near-canon. We don't know for sure who wrote this entry and we don't know that it went through the same scrutiny as the episodes themselves. That said, the assignment tracker gives us an explicit name for the ability, and nothing better (descriptive or explicit) has thus far been said on the show so I agree with using it for now. Whether or not we should fix the grammar (master vs. mastery) is different story, though. I've a feeling that it was a grammatical mistake and not on purpose, and we can probably clarify that when we get to Chuck Kim's interview. Until then, I'm also not happy with leaving the error but I'm okay with it.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:18, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
      • What Chuck Kim interview? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:42, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
        • The one Admin mentioned yesterday was being worked on. I'm guessing we'll probably get to interview him again eventually.--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:49, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
          • I don't have Kim but I do have interviews with David H. Lawrence XVII and Robert Forster, that reminds me....--Skywalkerrbf 15:55, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
            • Perhaps Admin can clarify what he meant. Maybe he's doing the interview himself?--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:01, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
              • No, that's my interview. I missed Admin's message. (It's so hard to check all the edits nowadays!) He and I discussed it earlier, I just wasn't sure if it was the same interview, or if somebody else had an interview with Chuck. I didn't know it was public yet. :) So yeah, barring scheduling details, I'll be interviewing Chuck. I suppose I can set up a talk page so people can submit some questions. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:32, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
                • It's a tentative interview at this point still. I posted a message to try to alleviate some of the discussions where it looked like they might not be getting anywhere. I'd hold off on the interview page until it's confirmed. (Admin 16:34, 22 October 2008 (EDT))
                  • I don't think the interview is going to happen...Oh well! :) -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 09:05, 15 November 2008 (EST)
                    • Bummer! Maybe he can do it during the December break? And why are you smiling about Chuck not interviewing? :(--MiamiVolts (talk) 11:54, 15 November 2008 (EST)
      • Throwing my two cents in: I think we should switch the ability name to Puppet mastery. It causes all kinds of grammatical problems to keep it the way it is, and adding the 'y' doesn't really change the intent of the writers. If they had mistyped the assignment tracker and listed his ability as 'Puppeg master,' or Knox's ability as 'Enhanced stregth,' wouldn't we fix the spelling error? Similarly, if they listed a character as being from San Francisco, Californa, wouldn't we assume they meant California, and not a fictional location? I think, since it appears to be a spelling error, and is from a non-canon source, adding the 'y' and putting a comment in the notes section stating the difference in the assignment tracker would make things easier, while still keeping with the intentions of the writers (meaning that they've cleared things up compared to the debating that went on last week about what this ability is). That said, I understand that it may not be worth creating a slippery slope on a hotly contested subject such as ability naming, and trying to fix it by attempting to get a question into the writers is a good way to go too. --Stevehim 02:46, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
        • This is the only change I would agree with. Puppet mastery will be much easier than Puppet master to work into other text, and it still draws directly from the assignment tracker. I think I'll go ahead and make this change; it can always be undone, after all. --Ted C 10:57, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
          • I reverted it. The Assignment Tracker says "Puppet master" and if we're going to deviate from that (and therefore the naming convention) there would have to be consensus first. (Admin 11:29, 23 October 2008 (EDT))

Humans make mistakes and errors

  • The writer might had a mistake or something, not all in the Assignment Tracker might be right you know. Its also made by humans like as, and we're capable of errors. It might not even really be made by the Real writers of Heroes, we don't know. NiveKJ13 03:59, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  • And it's not that "we don't lke it", We just think it's wrong grammar and everything -- NiveKJ13 03:59, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Why are we assuming that the writers made a mistake...twice? It's explicitly listed two times on the page. It's reviewed by the writing staff more than once. The grammar is not wrong, it's just not ideal. I'm astounded that we're taking a name that was explicitly given to us twice and we're considering changing it or varying it. There is no evidence that there's a mistake, no evidence that it's a typo, no evidence that there's a grammar goof. It makes the grammar tricky, but "puppet master" can absolutely be the name of his power. It's not the name I would personally choose, but I'm not on the creative team. To go against what the writers have given us seems very backwards to me. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:42, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
      • AFAIK we've yet to see a Assignment Tracker power name given, then later changed — although from a story perspective, that might be interesting. E.g., the Company finds out about someone's power and labels it, but then later discovers that it (like some discussions here) don't reflect the full depth of that power. Alternately but less clever, would be funny (but perhaps cruel) if an awkward name was put down to see how we react! ;) Here's to Doyle the Puppet Master! *creepy music plays* Re: origins, didn't Arthur Conan Doyle once write something like, "The puppet isn't the master?" --Torley 00:25, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

Consensus for rename to puppet mastery

  • Since it's come up a few times, I want to see if there's consensus for making an exception to the naming convention and renaming this "puppet mastery". The change is relatively minor and mostly grammatical, but we need consensus first since the term was explicitly listed. This section is not for discussing any other different names for the ability. It's solely to determine whether we should alter the grammar and name it puppet mastery. (Admin 11:33, 23 October 2008 (EDT))
    • On a semi-related but not directly-related note, people may want to check out the discussion at Help talk:Naming conventions#Conflicting sources and the subsequent threads on that page, as to whether description-derived names from the show should trump explicit names for abilities from the assignment tracker. If we decided to go that way, I think this would likely not be an issue. So far only SVD, myself and a couple administrators have left their opinions there.--MiamiVolts (talk) 12:06, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

I'd love to call this "puppet mastery," but "puppet master" was explicitly listed. Sigh...--ERROR 21:52, 29 May 2009 (EDT)

For the rename

  1. I don't have any objections. (Admin 11:35, 23 October 2008 (EDT))
  2. I support the change. GabrielPetrelli 11:36, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  3. I support the change.--MiamiVolts (talk) 11:41, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  4. I support the change. Despite what the Assignment Tracker says, "Puppet master" really is not a viable name for an ability. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 12:07, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  5. I support the rename -- humans are capable of mistakes, and the writers are humans as we kno..haha XD NiveKJ13 14:40, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  6. Rename it!!! or you can put a better name in the title, but put your beloved "puppet master" in the description, at least the information's not lost..Witchy2006 14:43, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  7. I support the change. "Puppet Master" is a role, "Puppet Mastery" is an ability. (PS. There have been typos in the dubs of what Hiro says, the writers are not incapable of making mistakes.) Ricard Desi 14:52, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  8. I support the change. Invareday 14:58, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  9. I support the rename. It just the letter "y" after all. --TraverseTown 15:12, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  10. Definitely in favor of Puppet Mastery sound much better then "Puppet Master". -- Futurepeter ( U - T - C ) 15:45, 23 October 2008 (EDT))
    • It worries me that we're making decisions based on whether something sounds better than something else. Hmm. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:28, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
      • It not about that "it sounds better",its the grammar we're talking about here. NiveKJ13 16:44, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
        • No, the vote above lists the reason as sounding better. I'm not sure what's wrong with the grammar--what issue are you running into with the grammar? -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:49, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
          • It's the "role" vs. "ability" argument. Puppet master would be like calling Nathan's ability Flier. Supporting a name based on "sound" is wrong, but the role v. ability argument is a little different. The text of the name as seen in the tracker is left intact, with just a '-y' to make that difference. I don't think the writers made a mistake putting down Puppet master, but it seems like they meant it as in "Eric Doyle is a Puppet Master". In terms of "Eric Doyle has the ability of..." (a context in which every other ability name works with, AFAIK), the "-y" makes it work. GabrielPetrelli 16:54, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
            • Not "bliss and horror"--that's something that Guillame creates. Guillame doesn't have bliss and horror--he creates bliss and/or horror in others. The "Soandso's ability" titles don't work ("Alejandro has the ability of Alejandro's ability?"). I also wouldn't say that Elle has the ability of lightning--she creates lightning. To change the name that's given to us (or to assume we know what they meant when they put it down) is to say that we know better than the creative staff of Heroes. I don't like the implications of that. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:22, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
              • So you'd be against renaming, say, intuitive aptitude to intuitive aptitude if Sylar's AT profile listed it as "oogaboogalolwut"? With all due respect... I certainly don't mean to disrespect anyone... But if an ability name fails to make sense, then I believe exceptions should be made for those cases. (of course, in cases such as bliss and horror and soandso's ability, we don't really have any other choice considering that's all we have) The people behind Heroes are human beings after all. They make mistakes. Thinking that we know better than them might be wrong, but thinking that they're far beyond our comprehension is wrong too. They're the authorities, of course, but we shouldn't follow them blindly. Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 18:52, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
                • What are you talking about? Sylar's profile lists his ability explicitly as "intuitive aptitude". But theoretically yes, if the writers decided to make a change to some other name, I would absolutely go with that name, even if it made no sense to me. I surely understand that the writers are not perfect and I don't think they're beyond our comprehension--to think so would be ludicrous. But to assume that this is a mistake with no evidence is just the same. The term "puppet master" is listed on the assignment tracker twice. I take that to mean that there are pretty good odds that it was purposefully chosen. In fact, it's speculative to assume it's a mistake. I don't think we should follow blindly, but I also don't think we should shut our eyes to the explicit information given to us. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:00, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
                  • I was speaking hypothetically. But just to clarify... if the name of pyrokinesis was actually given as cryokinesis (hypothetically) on Flint's AT... You'd go with cryokinesis? And also I think we do have some evidence that it is a mistake... The fact that it's grammatically incorrect. Yes, it is listed twice as "puppet master." But note that the name/description is copy/pasted directly from the actual text. They could have made one mistake in the text, then copy/pasted it over into the image, making another mistake. I'm not saying that's what happened, but it's certainly possible. Besides, the person writing the AT profiles appears to be quite the wordsmith... I don't see how they could intentionally name his ability "puppet master." (on another note, the title of Eric Doyle's AT page is "Assignment Tracker 2.0"... just thought that was worth noting) Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 19:11, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
                    • Assuming (hypothetically) that we didn't have a situation in which two sources conflicted each other (i.e., Flint's profile says "pyrokinesis" and another person with the same ability but a different name listed would be cause for much discussion)--so like if Flint's page never said pyrokinesis, but said cryokinesis instead? Yeah, I'd definitely be in favor of that instead. It wouldn't be my first choice of a name if I were to name it myself, and it there are holes in the perfection of the name (As there are with telescopic vision and others), but if that's what the writers are saying the Company names the power, then that's what we should name the power too. I know writers make mistakes, yes, but I trust them enough to know what they're doing so that if they're explicit enough with a name, there's a reason for it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:27, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
                      • With all due respect, you're contradicting yourself there... "I don't think we should follow blindly"? Listing Flint's ability as one that creates and manipulates ice despite obvious visible evidence that he does, in fact, create fire, is following blindly in my opinion. And there can't possibly be any reason for listing it as cryokinesis other than it being a mistake (albeit a very grave one that is unlikely to happen). Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 21:02, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
                        • You seem to be leaving the hypothetics of the situation you created and moving into more specific territory, but I'll go with you. Cryokinesis does not mean the ability to create and manipulate ice. Cryokinesis means "cold movement". I assume that if the writers listed the ability to create fire as "cryokinesis", it's because they understand that the character is moving cold away from the area in a way that creates heat and fire. But I think your real question is about what to do when the writers make a mistake. It happens all the time, and we use our best judgment. That's the part about not following blindly. However, I don't think this is a mistake. To assume it's a mistake is speculative. After scrutiny and editing and deliberation from the writing staff, this is the name they came up with and listed twice on the page. But, just to be sure, I've sent out a few emails to some of the writing staff to make sure since there seems to be so many people questioning it. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:18, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
                          • I guess we'll find out shortly, then. And as one of those who still question it and don't think it's speculative to do so--thanks.--MiamiVolts (talk) 23:24, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
                          • Heh, you always find some way to refute my points Ryan. (I mean that in the best sense of the phrase) That's a good point about the cryokinesis situation. However, I'm still steadfast on the pro-Puppet mastery debate. Hopefully we'll get this cleared up soon... Sincerely, Thrashmeister [ U | T | C ] 23:30, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
                          • John O'Hara is the editor of the assignment tracker profiles, and the creative team reviews them. Sometimes John writes the profiles himself, and sometimes he gives them out to the GN writers. I don't know specifically who wrote this one, and I don't have John's contact information to find out. But Ollie Grigsby assures me they are edited and reviewed for accuracy and cohesiveness/continuity with the rest of the show. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 08:06, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
                            • Thanks, Ryan. That's some good info and answers a couple of my questions. However, it's a generic response and doesn't satisfy me as to the ability name in Eric's profile. If you can't get John's contact info from NBC, you might want to try ElectricBear Studios, as it appears from IMDb that he could have been editor for their 2005 film (they do direct-to-video films for children).--MiamiVolts (talk) 12:28, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
                              • I've put out a few feelers for to contact him through Heroes staffers. I've done that before, but never such a concentrated effort as this. I think either my contacts didn't follow through, or John is one of those guys who would rather just do his job and not talk to "outsiders" like me. I can respect that. We'll see what turns up, though. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 12:56, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
  11. I support the rename. --Stevehim 17:17, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  12. I'll list my vote of "It don't matter to me" here. --SacValleyDweller (talk) 18:19, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  13. I'd prefer Puppet Mastery. Seriously, what's the harm in that? I'm guessing a Puppet Master would have Puppet Mastery. Puppetry is pulling it a little further away from the original name, but I say Puppet Mastery fits it well enough... Kortu 18:49, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  14. Ahh Lighting 2.0! Personally I do not think we should have to be boxed in by policies similar to Wikipedia. The Assignment Tracker is not a bible and should not be treated as such. Besides if every time we mention this people we refer to it as Puppet mastery which redirects to puppet master because of grammatical implications, it seems quite pointless not to rename it. --  Seclusion  talk / contribs 00:30, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
  15. As much as I don't like the idea of changing the name the AT gave us, one little -y couldn't hurt. --Piemanmoo 15:32, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
  16. I support the rename --LeoChris 16:51, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
  17. My fellow peeps of the Heroes Wiki, "Puppet Master" is a person, and adding a "y" to the end is STILL canon. Adding the "y" at the end will make the name appropriate. All you people who are whining about the "y" making it "un-canon" are simply wrong and need to get over it. TheEvilNoob 19:34, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
  18. I support the rename. Since we all are (should be) educated individuals, I believe that we should be capable of telling the difference between a noun (Puppet master) from an adverb (Puppet mastery). I mean, look at it this way. Eric Doyle has the ability of puppet master. If that doesn't tell you something then, I suggest you guys need to go back to the third grade. Titan3510 20:24, 28 October 2008
    • Let's not be rude....Also, "puppet mastery" is a noun, not an adverb. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:31, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
      • Sorry. Kinda annoyed that we have to have this discussion but hey, no pain no game. Anyways, isn't puppet mastery used in this context as an adverb because having puppet-like mastery is a verb that describes another verb. Titan3510 20:48, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
        • No problem. Discussion is good, hurtful comments aren't. :) ... Adverbs modify adjectives, verbs, or other adverbs. Nouns, as you know, are people, places, or things. Both mastery and masters are nouns. "Having puppet-like mastery" is a phrase that has a verb participle (having) and a noun (mastery). It doesn't describe any other verb--I'm not sure a phrase can describe a verb, or at least not in the way you're describing. It's not an adverb though. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 21:00, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
  19. Yamawhata? 20:35, 29 October 2008 (EDT) We should be accurate to the canon, but not at the expense of the language.
  20. "Eric has the ability of puppet master..." "Eric has the ability of puppet mastery..." I know which I prefer. Isaacthepainter 10:22, 3 November 2008 (EST)
  21. I support the change. "Puppet Master" just doesn't sound 'right' next to all the other abilities, not to mention the grammatical issues. --The Mysterious Major Despard 23:11, 3 November 2008 (EST)
  22. I support the change,mainly for the reasons stated above me. --Crazylicious 20:50, 4 December 2008 (EST)
  23. Even though I don't like the canon name, we need to correct the grammer errors. --Litox 09:46, 10 December 2008 (EST)
  24. IceGhost78 Let's do this
  25. FOR AND FOR AND FOR AND FOR the rename. Puppet Master sounds like a job or something. Even Eric Doyle's ability sounds better. I rather have this ability renamed to "The Ability Which Controlled Meredith Claire And Sandra In Dying Of The Light" then to have it as puppet master. Change it already!--JLYK 18:37, 29 April 2009 (EST)
  26. I support this all the way.--Catalyst · Talk · HL 23:06, 29 May 2009 (EDT)
  27. I support it -Vampirate68 08:38, 30 May 2009 (EDT)
  28. I support this renaming as well-- By Danko CH 09:14, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

Against the rename

  1. As much as I hate it, it is what they gave us. We have "Bliss and horror" as an ability name, which is terrible. Puppet Mastery suggests that he masters puppets and doesn't really imply that it's about humans. They seem to have named his ability directly for him, which doesn't help either, but removes that it's specifically about literal puppets (I think.). Hopefully they change it. It is, however, what they gave us, so we really shouldn't bend the standards.--Riddler 12:24, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
    • "Puppet mastery" doesn't suggest he masters puppets any more than "puppet master." They did give it to us and we're not talking about renaming the ability itself (i.e. making something like "lightning emission"), but rather only changing the grammar so that it fits more appropriately with the other ability names so far. (Admin 12:37, 23 October 2008 (EDT))
      • (Admin beat me to it, but I'll post my thoughts anyway) Just curious, how does "Puppet Master" not also suggest that "he masters puppets"? And how does it imply that it involves humans, any more than Puppet Mastery? I don't see a difference in meaning between the two; I just see correct grammar with "Mastery". "Bliss and horror" is indeed extremely awkward, but the grammar is proper for it at least. GabrielPetrelli 12:39, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  2. I do not support a rename. I know that the assignment tracker pages go through a lot of scrutiny and get double and triple checked. They are debated and discussed among the writers a lot. The phrase "puppet master" is given to us--twice--on the assignment tracker page. If we start to assume that things are mistakes when they aren't, we run a dangerous course of speculation. The writers know more about the power than we do and they chose the name for a reason. It's not my favorite, but it's a fine name. I'm not understanding the arguments for renaming it. If it causes grammatical issues, pipe the link: "Eric Doyle can [[puppet master|control the movements of others]]." If one wants to use a derivative, [[puppet mastery]] links here, and you can also just type "[[puppet master]]y". Our job as Wikians is to document and chronicle everything. The name given to us is "puppet master", not "puppet mastery". If we don't document that as the title of the page, we are not doing our jobs. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 13:00, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Ryan, perhaps you can clarify some questions I had about the checking that is done for the assignment tracker? I listed some new questions at Interview talk:Joe Tolerico#Next time. Also, there's a line I like from The Lost World:Jurassic Park, "whatever you study, you also change". We're not just Wikians, but Heroes Wikians and have our own policies which we all get to decide on for how we want to document and chronicle the content of the show and things related to it. Those policies are continuously up for review and debate, so your argument that we would not be "doing our jobs" is rather circular. That said, I understand the desire to go with what is given to us in black and white, but disagree with it. It seems awfully silly to me to not correct grammar. A change in terminology is different story, as it can imply a different meaning, but not correcting grammar can be an even slipper slope. For just one example, if we had "fly" for Nathan's ability name, that might imply that Nathan's ability could expand into him turning into a fly (which is not at all correct based on the show).--MiamiVolts (talk) 15:02, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
      • There is no incorrect grammar in listing his ability as "puppet master". None. It's not ideal, but it does work, and it is correct. And even as our policies might evolve, our basic mission is still the same--to document and chronicle the world of Heroes. If the name is given to us more than once as "puppet master", to change it (even by adding a y to the end) is going against what has been explicitly given to us. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 15:59, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
        • Actually, I think that saying his ability name is "puppet master" is incorrect grammar. Master means an expert, someone possessing a refined ability. Mastery means possession of a refined ability. Both are nouns, but they have different meaning. Also, the assignment tracker doesn't put it in the form of a sentence. The name is in a box and in a picture above a diagram of the guy, so the intention could have been to name the man, not the ability.--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:33, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
          • And we don't have to put it in the form of a sentence either. There are about five places where we need to list "puppet master," just as the assignment tracker has it--and none of them are sentences. It should be listed as "puppet master" in the title of the page about the ability, in Eric Doyle's infobox, in the list of abilities, in the list of evolved humans, and in related portals. All other times, the power name can be used in a pipe link, as we do with most powers. For instance, it would be incorrect to say "Eden persuasioned Matt"--something like "Eden commanded Matt" is correct. Likewise, it would be incorrect to say "Eric puppet mastered Meredith"--instead something like "Eric controlled Meredith" would be appropriate. But the name given to us is no accident and is not a mistake--to believe that we know better than the writers is just plain wrong. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 16:46, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
            • There's actually one place we need to put it in a sentence...the opening one on the page, defining the ability. That's what I have the most problem with, as it's grammatically incorrect to say 'Puppet master is the ability to...' I could accept the link piping idea, but I think Miami Volts makes a good point that we do have to make decisions that sometimes don't exactly conform to the information we've been given (eg - combining the electronic and digital communication pages). --Stevehim 17:17, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
              • If the lead sentence is an issue, wouldn't this work? "Eric has the ability to take control of other people's bodies and motor functions against their will. The Company's assignment tracker profile for Eric lists this ability as puppet master." -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 17:40, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
                • My problem with that is it directly associates Eric with the ability, rather than a making a general statement about it. There's no reason to assume he's the only one who has or will have it. --Stevehim 17:51, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
                • I see what you're saying...but while he's the only one shown to have this ability, it's fine. But if it's still a problem for some, the wording can simply be changed to "The Company's assignment tracker profile for Eric lists his ability as puppet master. This is the ability to take control of other people's bodies and motor functions against their will." Another choice is "The Company calls the ability to take control of other people's bodies and motor functions against their will "puppet master"." -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 18:09, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
                    • Alternatively, "Puppet Master is the company's name for Eric's ability to take control of other people's bodies and motor functions against their will" --SacValleyDweller (talk) 18:17, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
                  • While not the ideal phrasing, I do think that: "The Company calls the ability to take control of other people's bodies and motor functions against their will 'puppet master'" is probably the best way to put (and I'd have no argument with) it, if things remain as they are. --Stevehim 19:14, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
                    • I'll go ahead and put that then, since it's better than what's up there now. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:20, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  3. I think "puppet master" works. -Lөvөl 13:06, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  4. --  PinkKeith (talk) 16:01, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  5. Ryan is right. FutureSNLWriter 19:26, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  6. Yes - RGS is right. Sorry it took me so long to see it (might blame it on English being my 2nd language?) --Pierre 20:59, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
  7. I'm fine with leaving it as "Puppet Master". Keep it simple; despite linguistic inconsistency, it's clear (and clearly remarkable, since we're discussing it) what it means. But gosh forbid we see a Muppet Apprentice later on! :p --Torley 00:27, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
  8. Puppet Master works just fine, and is even seen in an episode (Forgot the name, Canfield's big story one.) --Max 21:12, 22 December 2008 (EST)

Voting Results

  1. only half of the "for" are "against". So I'd say the rename should be made. --NiveKJ13 15:33, October 24, 2008
    • This would be a mistake; discussion is still ongoing above. I wouldn't change anything yet. GabrielPetrelli 15:45, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Consensus does not work like that. It must remain puppet master unless everyone agrees it should be renamed. The default action is to stick with the naming convention which requires us to use puppet master. (Admin 16:03, 24 October 2008 (EDT))
      • If that were true, Admin, (that 100% of people need to agree) then either the administrators need to hold their own consensus check for the gravitational manipulation discussion, or it needs to be renamed to vortex creation. There was not consensus from everyone to change the policy to allow assignment tracker content to trump descriptive-formed names from the show.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:32, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
        • It has always been that way. The policy may have been ambiguous. A name based on a description is still a name we're making up. (Admin 17:34, 24 October 2008 (EDT))
          • It hasn't always been that way. Back before the assignment tracker existed, we defined "flight" as canon (level 1). It's another form of "fly", which was a term used in the show. We can of course change that to level 5 now, but technically that is a change of policy that was not decided by consensus.--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:39, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
            • Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of changing this to "puppet mastery". I don't personally find grammatical changes to be important enough that they should get in the way of a logically sounding name that conforms with the other ability names. Fly to flight is ok in my book, too. As long as we're not adding words or fundamentally altering the name, I would have no problem with it. (Admin 17:43, 24 October 2008 (EDT))
              • One of the folders in the Genesis Files is labeled "Human Flight Potential". In Genesis, Peter says, "So I went to the library to see if I could find anything on human flight." Then he reads from Activating Evolution itself: "Genes determine obesity, blood pressure. Out of the 30 billion possibilities, one might contain the potential for human flight." -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 19:36, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
                • Good find, Ryan. Though it's not necessarily a better source, and I've listed my reasons at Talk:Flight.--MiamiVolts (talk) 20:42, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
Puppet master sounds like a profession. It should be changed to Puppet mastery. Now.--Citizen 20:14, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
C'mon guys. The results are in. Everyone knows within their core that puppet master isn't a proper name to describe an ability. It's not even grammatically proper. So, why are you guys still fighting to keep it even though it makes no sense. Titan3510 17:38, 6 November 2008 (EST)

Bring back the "Eric's Ability" name at the current time, till we find the answer

  • We should put "Eric's ability" in the title of all the pages of the ability, till we find the answers we needed, because some visitors of the page would find it comfusing. ---NiveKJ13 19:29, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
  • No --TheEvilNoob 19:38, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
  • No --Piemanmoo 19:46, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
    • Give a valid reason, "Why Not?" NiveKJ13 19:56, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
    • No --TheEvilNoob 20:30, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
      • We have been given a name for the ability, so we should use it. If there are any visitors who come here looking for Eric's ability, they will be redirected to this page. -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 20:31, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
        • Exactly. While there's some debate as to whether it should become puppet mastery, there's certainly no disputing that puppet master was provided to us. It wouldn't make sense to move it back to "Eric's ability" just because we're discussing an alternative. (Admin 20:35, 24 October 2008 (EDT))
          • Admin, you're an administrator, you can change if you know your right.You dont need other people to back you down because they want to see what they want... Witchy2006 20:39, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
            • It doesn't work that way. :) The wiki is built on the idea of collaboration and equal say. If I were to force things upon people just because I could all the time then it would discourage collaboration and would make the site pretty crummy. I'm not always right and it wouldn't be fair to force people to accept my views. Instead my (and everyone else's) goal should be to try to approach every situation objectively and try to persuade people. (Admin 21:20, 24 October 2008 (EDT))
  • I'm just sayin "for the meantime" NiveKJ13 20:46, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
    • I agree with Admin on not reverting the name to "Eric's ability". I think Admin still needs to reconcile a couple things in regards to consensus as I pointed out in the previous thread. However, assuming it is decided not to change the grammar, my opinion is that leaving the name with the error would still be better than not having the name at all.--MiamiVolts (talk) 20:58, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
      • I don't see anything left to reconcile. It looks all addressed to me. (Admin 21:20, 24 October 2008 (EDT))
        • Then you missed my point. I wasn't pointing out flight as something that needed to be changed, but as an example to point out the falsity of a claim.--MiamiVolts (talk) 21:32, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
          • I still don't see it. I don't consider "flight" to be a name we invented so it doesn't affect how canonical it is... so I don't see how it reflects anything new with the policy. (Admin 21:33, 24 October 2008 (EDT))
            • That was part of the point. It is something old where we had agreed to change the form of a word to be the name of the ability. The source for the power name template had a quote with "fly" in it, not "flight", and has done so for over a year. Ryan thought that we could have used a different quote, but the fact remains that we didn't so that's irrelevant.--MiamiVolts (talk) 22:19, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
              • I'm not sure about the 'Flight' issue, but I would ask for a clarification on the consensus rule check...are we really saying that the only way to change things is with 100% of the vote? That seems a bit too much, imo, as all it would take is one person to support the opposing side and the consensus discussion would, essentially, be over (or would have to revert to everyone trying to convince that one person to change their mind). I could see that things in this case, where it's just over 2 to 1, with a substantial number of people on each side, do not support a change, but 100% seems a bit drastic to me (just my opinion though, and I will obviously accept whatever majority or executive decisions are made  :)) PS to the OP- I don't think renaming this to Eric's ability is worth it either...while I still think adding the 'y' would be fine, that's the only change worth considering, as we've been given a name for the ability from a reliable source.--Stevehim 00:13, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
                • See Wikipedia's article on consensus for a better understanding as to what it is. There are no votes here. 100% agreement is not an accurate requirement. (Admin 00:56, 25 October 2008 (EDT))
                  • My brother if you start using Wikipedia as a source for things here, you know how many flame wars will start? TheEvilNoob 18:55, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
                    • Errr, he linked to a Wikipedia policy page to give an idea of what is meant by "consensus." Most of Wikipedia's policies are pretty standard fare. GabrielPetrelli 19:15, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
                      • Agreed. Wikipedia's policies for running their site are not subject to the same type of questioning of accuracy as their general article archive (though even that's good for general use), and there's no reason not to source it. That said, I read the article 3 times and still have no clear understanding on what constitutes a consensus. --Stevehim 18:36, 26 October 2008 (EDT)

Name

People keep saying we have been given a name for the ability, but the only thing we have been given is a nickname for Doyle himself. "Puppet Master" was not referring to his ability's name, but rather his own personal dubbed name. Dean Harper 00:31, 8 November 2008 (EST)

Voting...

The voting has been going on for over a month. It seems pretty clear that a rename is in order, like it or not. FutureSNLWriter 20:54, 20 November 2008 (EST)

  • Consensus here isn't majority. It's unanimity. The explicitly named ability name stays.--Riddler 21:19, 20 November 2008 (EST)
    • That's dumb, there's always going to be someone who doesn't agree. --Powermimic 23:55, 21 November 2008 (EST)
      • If you read our naming convention, you'll see the only mention of a consensus being needed is for descriptive names, which this is not. From the page: "Descriptive names: If the ability has not been named and a common name for it does not exist, a descriptive name of the ability is appropriate, so long as it does not lend to speculation. A consensus must be attained for this level." Since this name was explicitly stated in a near-canon source, there is no consensus necessary. The voting was started before the name was revealed on the AT 2.0.--Bob (talk) 00:33, 22 November 2008 (EST)
        • Bob, the consensus check here was begun by Admin after the assignment tracker was released to see if there was consensus to alter the grammar and call the ability "Puppet mastery".--MiamiVolts (talk) 00:45, 22 November 2008 (EST)
      • It was also stated (by Admin) that unanimity does not need to exist for a consensus change to be effected. I'm still not sure what exactly needs to be done for this to occur though, even after reading the wikipedia link provided. If there aren't set rules, I could see this going either way. On the one hand, we have a significant number of people (7) voting for the name to stay as it is, so it is a somewhat strong minority (and not a case of an individual simply being difficult and bucking the trend). On the other hand, there is a 3:1 ratio for adding the 'y,' which is a pretty high percentage of the population agreeing it should be changed. Again, I'm not sure what the exact rule is on forming a consensus, but 75% of the people voting one way is statistically noteworthy. --Stevehim 01:13, 22 November 2008 (EST)
        • I believe the way Admin has phrased it is that it needs to unanimity of those who have expressed an opinion. That's why in the past it has been noted that saying why your preference leans one way or the other is just as important as saying what your preference is.--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:23, 22 November 2008 (EST)
          • At the very least there certainly has to be a consensus among reasonable people that the name should be changed. By default (i.e. without full consensus) we keep the name we're given, but if there's full consensus then it could be renamed. Without getting into a matter of policy, full consensus can override policy since it reflects a unanimous view of the people here which is ultimately the most important thing. But without consensus (which I define as agreement among reasonable people to at least not disagree) we'd stick to the naming convention so we'd use the exact name we're given. (Admin 01:35, 22 November 2008 (EST))
            • Can we confirm then that Admin assumes everyone who has expressed a preference above is reasonable? How does Admin assess if a person is reasonable?--MiamiVolts (talk) 01:44, 22 November 2008 (EST)
              • No offense to Admin, but this is a community, and any unreasonable preferences should be pretty apparent by the community. On a tough topic like this, the consensus probably should be decided by one of the four administrators, or at least a senior user in good standing, not just Admin.--Tim Thomason 17:56, 22 November 2008 (EST)
              • I would guess Admin considers all users reasonable off the bat, only disqualifying the ones who resort to vandalous contributions and/or illogical reasoning (eg - The power should be changed from Puppet Master to Brain Drain because my pet rutabaga told me it should). --Stevehim 21:40, 22 November 2008 (EST)
                • You have a pet rutabaga, too? Small world! -- RyanGibsonStewart (talk) 22:23, 22 November 2008 (EST)
                  • I know lets call it Blackmailinises Lol Gabriel Bishop 11:57, 28 November 2008 (EST)Gabriel Bishop

Movement Manipulation, or Muscle Manipulation?

Surely one of these names would be better than Puppet master? after all, he is manipulating ther Muscles or/and movement. Fred1793 18:15, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Update the Limits section?

After Dual, shouldn't the limits section be amended to say that Doyle's influence CAN be overcome, specifically by(though not necessarily limited to) Telekinesis? ~~Darmenos 19:52, 16 December 2008 (EDT)

  • I was under the impression that it was willpower (...somehow), cus Doyle has been shown to be able to prevent his victims from using their powers. But yeah, it should be added that it can be overcome. --BardinessBoy 21:01, 16 December 2008 (EST)
    • I was actually under the impression that Doyle got scared and lost his concentration.--SacValleyDweller (talk) 21:05, 16 December 2008 (EST)
      • Really? I went by kinda quickly, but I remember him being pretty confident at the begining. Also, he got a nosebleed, which implies he was mentally overpowered. --BardinessBoy 21:09, 16 December 2008 (EST)
      • At first I assumed it was telekinesis and, while that's the most likely cause, it's speculative to say so right now. The nosebleed is usually consistent with someone's power being stretched to the limit (eg - Matt with the Haitian, Peter with the vault), and so that's all we should say right now. --Stevehim 02:27, 22 December 2008 (EST)
        • After thinking about this some more, I'm going to revise my statement that the most likely cause of Sylar overpowering Doyle was telekinesis. I think it may be more likely that it was intuitive aptitude; meaning Sylar was gaining understanding of what Eric was doing and then making it harder for him to do so. If Sylar was going to use telekinesis, he could've just tossed Eric across the hall, or forced Eric's hand down (we've seen Sylar use tk without his hands, iirc). And I don't really see how he'd be using telekinesis to cause a nosebleed either, unless he was somehow squeezing Eric's head with it. --Stevehim 14:56, 23 December 2008 (EST)

Bodily Possession

User:Shadowulf1 20:46, 21 December 2008 (EST) IMHO, I have something to add. For those of you who couldn't figure the name, it is apparent that his ability was Possession. I will tell you why:

1.) He controls people movements (and use of abilities)

2.) The subjects have no conscious control, and only one person (Sylar) has been shown able to resist him...and that's only because he had a superhuman ability

3.) He must maintain concentration over the person he controls

4.) He has only been shown able to control one person at a time

I thought by now someone would have come up with this but personally I just realized it myself (the name may sound too spirity and supernatural for some, but that's basically what it is...Possession)

  • Actually he was controlling Clair, Meredith and Sandra all at once at his store, and then Sandra and Sylar at once in Primatech, so number 4 is wrong. D Toccs 08:13, 23 December 2008 (EST)
    • I'm guessing you mean Meredith and Sylar at Primatech, but I don't think he was actually controlling Meredith there...she just seemed paralyzed with fear. You are absolutely correct about him controlling the three ladies at his store though. --Stevehim 08:28, 23 December 2008 (EST)
      • okay well controlling numerous people at once means he simply has advanced possession.--Shadowulf1 (talk) 12:16, 25 December 2008 (EST)