View source for Talk:Takezo Kensei

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== Character? ==
Should he be in the character categories? --{{User:ohmyn0/sig}} 19:08, 24 January 2007 (EST)

I don't think so. [[User:Heroe|Heroe]] 19:19, 24 January 2007 (EST)
:I put him in the character category because he's the original owner of the sword. Afterall, he is (was) a person. I think he's ''also'' a reference, since he's a figure from history. I'd keep him as both. As for the portals, I don't really care how that's taken care of. Personally, I think it should be in both. - [[User:Ryangibsonstewart|RyanGibsonStewart]] ([[User talk:Ryangibsonstewart|talk]]) 21:13, 24 January 2007 (EST)
::I agree.  Mr. Petrelli's a character and he's dead, too.  Ditto Shanti Suresh.  They're people who are important to the story.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 22:43, 24 January 2007 (EST)
:::However, I disagree. This guy is more of a legend than someone who could directly influence the story, other than his sword. --{{User:ohmyn0/sig}} 00:09, 25 January 2007 (EST)
::::...so far.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 00:13, 25 January 2007 (EST)
:::::Really, the only differences between Takezo and the others Hardvice listed are that Takezo is ''much'' older, and that he's a figure from history. However, I don't think age should matter, and we're not even sure he's really a real person. He's ''may'' be Miyamoto Musashi, but even historians can't be sure. (In fact, maybe that's why the writers chose him, so they can be ambiguous about the character's past.) I say that the original owner of a major plot point like the sword is ''definitely'' a character - especially in a show where time travel is possible. - [[User:Ryangibsonstewart|RyanGibsonStewart]] ([[User talk:Ryangibsonstewart|talk]]) 00:21, 25 January 2007 (EST)
*To bring this subject "current": As of Season 2, Kensei is currently a character and is in the Character categories.--[[User:NissanVersaDootDoot|NissanVersaDootDoot]] 17:09, 3 October 2007 (EDT)


== Not really a reference.... ==

I'm not sure how this can be a reference article, since Takezo never existed in the real world and he's more of a character starting in season two. --{{User:Heroe/sig}} 22:51, 28 August 2007 (EDT)
* I partly agree. When season two begins, we should probably move this article to the character box and have a seperate reference article on [[Wikipedia:Miyamoto Musashi|Miyamoto Musashi]] and the differences between the real and fictional Kensei's. Until then, this is both a Heroes 360 and an episode reference.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 23:15, 28 August 2007 (EDT)
** I agree, Heroe, this article isn't really a reference. We categorized it as such because "Kensei" is really a term that just means "sword saint", and because there was the possibility of him being (or representing) Miyamoto Musashi. I don't think we should have an article on Miyamoto Musashi, though, since he really is never referenced. If anything, the Musashi connection should remain a note on this page, and we should just drop the reference cat. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 00:43, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
*** Perhaps putting the differences in a history vs. myth theme page would be better, then, especially since it's been hinted we are going to be exploring legends not just from Japan.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 00:55, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
**** I don't think we need a full comparison of the differences between Kensei and Musashi. The basic differences can be discussed in the Notes. If Musashi is mentioned anywhere in the ''Heroes'' universe, then fine, a reference page could be made. But I'd much rather see any discussion of Musashi confined to a Notes section. When a legend comes up, we can deal with it individually. And in this particular case, the connection between Kensei and Musashi is weak at best, and is nonexistent in the ''Heroes'' realm. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 01:13, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
Sooooo, can Kensai be removed from the references portal?--[[User:SacValleyDweller|SacValleyDweller]] 15:43, 31 August 2007 (EDT)
*Thanks for the reminder. I'll take care of it now. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 15:52, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

* I think it's awesome that we had a discussion that this article was a reference article and not a character article, and now we've had a discussion that this article is a character article and not a reference article.  Just goes to show how the creators end up keeping us on our toes.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 02:49, 2 October 2007 (EDT)

== As for Takezo... ==

I think any reference to him that involves Kaito and Hiro's stories should have some mention of "the legend" or something to that effect. As we watch Kensei's story unravel, we're noticing things aren't what the story told - The Princess seems to despise Kensei. My first suggestion would be, on the Princess Page, add "according to legend" right after "Takezo gives his life for the princess."--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 22:48, 24 September 2007 (EDT)
*???--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 17:47, 25 September 2007 (EDT)
** Agreed. I'm making an effort to describe events as they are shown in the episodes, then noting the legends as such in an effort to note the discrepancies between the legend and how things now happen (''e.g.'' The Battle of 12 Swords in ''[[Sword Saint]]'' is pictured as a bloodbath, but in ''[[Episode:Lizards|Lizards]]'' it's Hiro's trickery that wins it.) To be clear, I'm doing this carefully because there's some possibility that they could reveal Hiro being there has caused a [[Rift]] and the legends describe how these events occurred before Hiro popped in.--[[User:NissanVersaDootDoot|NissanVersaDootDoot]] 18:04, 3 October 2007 (EDT)
*** That's a solid approach.  And how cool would it be if, after the story plays out, the videos on [[yamagatofellowship.org]] are changed to reflect the "new" history?--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 18:17, 3 October 2007 (EDT)

==Regeneration, huh?==
Never thought Kensei would have it...thoughts?--[[User:DarkPhoenix|DarkPhoenix]] 22:02, 1 October 2007 (EDT)
*Guess he made it through his suicide! XD --[[User:AvadaNella|AvadaNella]] 22:03, 1 October 2007 (EDT)
**Ugh...couldn't they have given him somthing different? West has the same power as Nathan and now Kensei has the same power as Claire. Come on, experiment people!--[[User:Dylankidwell|The Empath]] 22:05, 1 October 2007 (EDT)
*** Sure, Kensei, the man with the power of...*thinks* Hell, give him cell regeneration, say he's Claire's ancestor or something (just a theory, imagine if it was true XD), and call it a day.--[[User:DarkPhoenix|DarkPhoenix]] 22:06, 1 October 2007 (EDT)
*** They talk about their decision to duplicate powers in an interview [http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12002 here] if you're interested.  I think we'll be seeing quite a bit of duplication, but also quite a bit of new ones as well.  ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 22:07, 1 October 2007 (EDT))
****My first thought was "he is a younger Linderman" <small>--[[User:HiroDynoSlayer|HiroDynoSlayer]] ([[User talk:HiroDynoSlayer|talk]]) 10/1/2007 22:10 (EST)</small>
**** I think it's pretty interesting that they're introducing very different kinds of people with similar or the same abilities, and really, it would be more of a stretch if we didn't start to see some of them recur.  After all, Chandra was able to research whole classes of powers he was able to identify as potential abilities by analyzing genetic data.  It would be pretty odd if most of the abilities he identified were only held by one person, and they all were somehow connected to the story.  Instead, two of the abilities he mentions specifically in his book have now turned up on multiple users.  Kind of makes sense.  There are probably more common abilities and more scarce abilities, just like other traits.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 23:31, 1 October 2007 (EDT)
***** It might not be the same as Claire's, however. One possibility is that every time Kensei dies, he takes on another personality: one life as a drunken mercenary, one life as a hero, one life as a life as a lawyer, one life as a killer. It would make life very interesting for our Heroes, wouldn't it, to find that the monster they will know as Kane was a hero once and may be once again? One could even extend it one random leap furthur and claim that Kensei and Kane are both "Austin" Petrelli, who comitted suicide after learning about his wife's infidelity with Keito, only to rise again as Kane and seek revenge. That's... a bit of a stretch, is it? <small>--[[User:Calemyr|Calemyr]]</small>
****** I sure think it is. Almost as far fethed as the "bits of Peter" or the "Waffles" theories. :P--[[User:NissanVersaDootDoot|NissanVersaDootDoot]] 18:08, 3 October 2007 (EDT)
* "Makes" it through his suicide. Lets see if Kensei marries the Princess or if Hiro steals the girl. (Doubt it, since he was too honorable to kiss her while he had time frozen!)--[[User:NissanVersaDootDoot|NissanVersaDootDoot]] 18:08, 3 October 2007 (EDT)

==Isn't Kensai immortal?==
I know it's a spoiler but was it Kensai or someone else? I forgot/
[[User:Jason Garrick|Jason Garrick]] 23:00, 1 October 2007 (EDT)
* it was supposedly Kane, but now I'm not so sure.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 23:25, 1 October 2007 (EDT)
**Well, it was revealed today that Claire could regrow her appendages, and, in Five Years Past, she survived the bomb, so im guessing, like Claire, Kensei is "immortal." [[User:Dean Harper|Dean Harper]] 01:08, 2 October 2007 (EDT)
*** Maybe, but not necessarily. Regeneration isn't the same thing as not aging.--[[User:MiamiVolts|MiamiVolts]] ([[User_talk:MiamiVolts|talk]]) 01:15, 2 October 2007 (EDT)
*I think that it will come out in future episodes that he is immortal. When I saw that episode I thought that he had to die in order for his power to kick in, while Claire doesn't have to do that with her power. --[[User:Pinkkeith|Pinkkeith]] 10:56, 2 October 2007 (EDT)
** Think we very well might find out in a future episode that both Clare and Kensai is immortal.  However, Clare hasn't been around that long.  --[[User:Xmuskrat|Xmuskrat]] 11:30, 2 October 2007 (EDT)
*** He dies with two arrows still stuck in him, and returns back to life. Hiro removes one arrow - and Kensei is still alive when he does so. I think that's a major difference between Claire's and Kensei's regeneration patterns. Kensei might just... not be able to die. He can still get injured and stuff, but if he dies, he returns to life with no injuries. --[[User:DocM|DocM]] 17:30, 3 October 2007 (EDT)
**** The other possibility is that the arrow was in his heart, and the heart works the same way as the brain (see: Claire and the stump).  Should be interesting to watch the differences or similarities in their powers play out.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 17:37, 3 October 2007 (EDT)
***** People with regenerative healing factors should age much, much slower than a normal human being.  The obvious example is Wolverine.--[[User:Matt 2108|Matt 2108]] 01:09, 4 October 2007 (EDT)
***** Makes me excited for the scene when Kensei cuts out his heart. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 07:06, 4 October 2007 (EDT)
******This is just how Claire works when she is "killed." She has a branch sticking out of her head, and when the coroner removes it, she comes back to life. Hiro removed the arrow, and Kensei healed up. Of course, you might be wondering why it took so long for him to revive if he actually does have rapid cell regeneration, and not just immortality. This is easily answered by looking at Claire later in Lizards. She cuts off her toe and it takes a few seconds for it to start regrowing. This is evidence enough for me to suggest that they both have the same power. Puls, the producers stated that there would be "circles of heroes with the same powers." I'm thinking that Kensei is Claire's anscestor or something, or maybe one of the other Heroes'. [[User:Dean Harper|Dean Harper]] 22:23, 5 October 2007 (EDT)

== Barbarian in Japan ==
Consider hiro's quote when he says (paraphrasing) "My dad told me about Kenzei. He was a savage warrior." I found the Original Wikipedia's article on [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian|Barbarians]] in 16th & 17th Century Japan very interesting.  They called them ''nanban''s, which literally means "Barbarians from the South" or "Savages from the south." Was this intentional foreshadowing? Did they tell us last season that Kensei was a ''nanban''? --[[User:NissanVersaDootDoot|NissanVersaDootDoot]] 17:14, 3 October 2007 (EDT)

==Back to Life-Speculative==
he Lizards section writeup says, ''"Hiro is shocked to see Kensei's wound heal right before his eyes, and is even more surprised to see Kensei come back to life."'' It is confirmed that his wounds healed right before Hiro's eyes.  However, I believe it is speculative to assume that he was dead after just immediately being shot with arrows.  He very likely was near dead, and it is even possible in the realm of conjecture, that he wasn't even mortally wounded but only severally wounded and uncounscious.  Saying he was 'dead' and came back to life is very speculative, and I am going to take off that last phrase.  <small>--[[User:HiroDynoSlayer|HiroDynoSlayer]] ([[User talk:HiroDynoSlayer|talk]]) 10/5/2007 12:19 (EST)</small>
* IMO, good call. I thought it was speculative when I read it, but didn't want to remove speculation based on my own conjecture. ;)--[[User:NissanVersaDootDoot|NissanVersaDootDoot]] 12:25, 5 October 2007 (EDT)
** I've learned enough from watching Ryan's keen eye over the last year, to know when something is remotely speculative, it probably gets punted...things like that which are highly speculative now seem to stick out like a sore thumb (or pinky toe). Always feel comfortable removing overt speculation, and if you want to start a talk-discussion on it just to be sure, that is also always a good idea. <small>--[[User:HiroDynoSlayer|HiroDynoSlayer]] ([[User talk:HiroDynoSlayer|talk]]) 10/5/2007 12:28 (EST)</small>

==Not sure how we're getting this==
"With Kensei manifesting rapid cellular regeneration in 1671, he becomes the oldest known evolved human. (Lizards)"
* What does rcr have to do with his age?  Are we claiming he's old because of the DOB listed at the museum (which could be, y'know, totally wrong, like much that's "known" about the Kensei story)?
* Or are we meaning to claim that he's the ''earliest'' known evolved human?  That's not the same thing as oldest.  When we say an object is "the oldest arrowhead found", that's because the object ''is'' the oldest--it still exists.  But when we want to identify a person as coming from the earliest part of history, we have to say "earliest" because "oldest" is a statement of their age, and we don't know how old they were when they died.  Their ''remains'' could be the oldest because the remains still exist.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 13:27, 5 October 2007 (EDT)
** And incidentally, the note on the journal female's page really was about her age, not about when she became an evolved human.  She'd be 123 if still living, and that's pretty darned old.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 13:33, 5 October 2007 (EDT)
***Right. The journal note could probably be reworded to be more clear, but they're two different things. However, I have a feeling that since David Anders was originally cast as the 1000-year-old Kane, he will be both the earliest-known ''and'' the oldest evolved human. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 14:43, 5 October 2007 (EDT)
****Right.  But not yet.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 15:47, 5 October 2007 (EDT)

****I think that Kane and Kensai are the same person. I still think Kensai is immortal and when Hiro returns to the future he meets KEnsai but this time as Kane. [[User:Jason Garrick|Jason Garrick]] 15:26, 6 October 2007 (EDT)
** When I originally changed it, my intent was that Kensei/Kane whomever you want to call him, has become the '''earliest''' (better than oldest) known evolved human, having manifested a power in 1671.  Time jumpers like Hero don't count.  Unless Kensei/Kane ends up being a time-jumper too, then he is the first EH chronologically we know about. <small>--[[User:HiroDynoSlayer|HiroDynoSlayer]] ([[User talk:HiroDynoSlayer|talk]]) 10/6/2007 15:32 (EST)</small>

== Hiro was touched... ==

Based on the theories around Takezo in the future (present), many of which are centred around immortality, maybe he just grabbed Hiro when he went back to the future (present). This would make him ~400 years old he just hasn't lived them. I am assuming Hiro does go back of course. Seeing as anything Hiro touches can go with him this seems possible. Also another thought, maybe Hiro was distracted by it and mis-fired by like 20/30 years, rendering them in the same period as the earlier generation of evolved humans. Hiro may have had to dash off quickly, possibly becuase he saw himself, leaving Takezo there, to become part of the twelve. Maybe this is why Kaito has good sword skills, Takezo taught him. I know this creates some type of time paradox loop thing but the touching part is okay. --[[User:SomeoneImportant|SomeoneImportant]] 11:42, 8 October 2007 (EDT)
* Put it in the [[Theory:Takezo Kensei|theory page]]. It sounds about right.--[[User:Baldbobbo|Bob]] 11:57, 8 October 2007 (EDT)
* I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case as well especially if it turns out his power is just like [[Claire]]'s.  I personally dont think [[rapid cell regeneration]] = immortality so that would explain how he could be "1000 years old"... guess we'll find out soon enough! :)  ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 12:00, 8 October 2007 (EDT))
* I've just realised I had put 1000 years old, I got confused with one of the spoilers about Kane and the Kane/Kensei theories. Changed to ~400, although you never know he could have been around already for 600. Im not gonna put this in the theories becuase the theory of Takezo travelling with Hiro is already there, in short. My theory would just be a theory of a theory. --[[User:SomeoneImportant|SomeoneImportant]] 12:42, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

== Carp? ==

*Why does Kensei call Hiro "carp"? Is it ever mentioned?--{{User:Lost Soul/sig}} 05:35, 31 October 2007 (EDT)
**In [[Episode:Lizards]], I think, a drunk Kensei remarks that Hiro looks like a fish when he talks. "A giant carp." --[[User:Conspiracy Unit|Conspiracy Unit]] 05:38, 31 October 2007 (EDT)
**Aah, I see. Cool. Thanks.--{{User:Lost Soul/sig}} 05:39, 31 October 2007 (EDT)
***The full line (from a [http://www.kilohoku.com/transcripts/heroes/heroes-2X02.html transcript]) is:
****KENSEI: You look like a fish when you talk.
****HIRO: No, I promise, if you do this, they will tell the story for 400 years ... minimum!
****KENSEI: Like a giant carp.</blockquote>

== Move to Adam Monroe ==

So, we have two options: merge or move. I'd prefer merging, and having Kensei's legend separated somehow. If we decide to keep Kensei's article, we have to move a lot of the history on this page, but we should keep some info regarding Kensei in feudal Japan on this page. --{{User:Baldbobbo/sig}} 22:09, 5 November 2007 (EST)

* This page is going to be hell - Takezo Kensei is technically Hiro now. --[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 22:10, 5 November 2007 (EST)
**...after 1671. Up until that point, he was Adam. Yaeko's stories of Kensei were actually Hiro. Again, I say we leave the legend aspect separate somehow...maybe put it in Hiro's page, and have this article link to a disambig?--{{User:Baldbobbo/sig}} 22:40, 5 November 2007 (EST)
***Takezo is not a man but rather a figure of Japanese history, so I say leave them separate and let others find the spoiler within the text. :) -- [[User:Riffsyphon1024|Riffsyphon1024]] 22:41, 5 November 2007 (EST)
*** I like the direction this page is going in. --[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 22:45, 5 November 2007 (EST)
****Yes now it is about the figure and links to the 3 persons that portrayed him. -- [[User:Riffsyphon1024|Riffsyphon1024]] 22:48, 5 November 2007 (EST)
*****Definitely, move to Adam Monroe [[User:Dean Harper|Dean Harper]] 01:02, 6 November 2007 (EST)
**** Yeah, I'd have Adam's page refer to both his actions as Kensei and his actions as Adam, since its the closest thing to his proper name we have at this time. As for this page I say keep it with all the Kensei references and appearances, but talk only of times when someone's wearing the armor. Adam's appearance at the end of Out of Time, for example, would not be included on this page. --[[User:PeterDawson|PeterDawson]] 01:11, 6 November 2007 (EST)
*Ok, so the page is now Kensei-centric, with Hiro and Adam's role as Kensei. No more Adam stuff from the present. I think maybe we can change this from a character page to something else?--{{User:Baldbobbo/sig}} 01:15, 6 November 2007 (EST)

==Adam as Kensei==
* This "Adam as Kensei" stuff is annoying.  If he was called Kensei in an episode, the history should call him Kensei.  If he was called Adam, the history should call him Adam.  Simple as that.  We didn't go back and change all of the references to the "being who can see Molly" to say "Maury Parkman, as the being who can see Molly", and we didn't change all of the references to "Niki's alter ego" to "Jessica" once we found out her name.  The summaries should be complete and accurate ''as of the episode in question''.  We don't have to go back and update them when we find out a secret.  It sounds dumb and it breaks perspective.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 01:17, 6 November 2007 (EST)
** I disagree as Kensei is different from the Nightmare Man and Niki's alter ego because Kensei was represented by multiple people and was only a cover identity. While Adam was the one who first carried the title the legend itself and some of the bits from it were based on Hiro's actions, not Adam's. Thus because Kensei is in essense multiple people it is necessary to clear up who's playing Kensei when. Kensei isn't a person, he's a role. --[[User:PeterDawson|PeterDawson]] 01:37, 6 November 2007 (EST)
***Kensei has only been Hiro and the Fake Kensei once for each, and their each dually noted. So I think the version that it's with now without the "Adam (as Kensei)" looks clean and it won't confuse anyone. It's the guy Hiro found in the past.--{{User:Baldbobbo/sig}} 01:40, 6 November 2007 (EST)
*** It's disingenuous to have a summary for, say, ''Lizards'' talk about a character called Adam because no character called Adam appeared in that episode.  We have a guy whose name, as of that episode, is Kensei.  Later on, it turns out his name is Adam.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 01:45, 6 November 2007 (EST)
**** I was the one who introduced the idea of distinguishing 'Kensei' by who was portraying him.  Adam (as far as we know), is the true identity and name of the character played by David Anders; just like Hiro is the identity and name of the character played by Masi.  However, there is no true unique 'Kensei'....Kensei is a legendary fight portrayed by 3 different people.  It is true that Hiro only donned the costume once, but he also fulfilled many of the other attributes of 'Kensei' that Adam didn't; like falling in love with the princess, and being the one for whose integrity, honor, and personae the historical legend would be passed down from generation to generation about.(definately not Anders drunken, self-serving, anti-hero personae).  When you have multiple people representing a character, it is good to distinguish 'who' was portraying the character at whichever given time.  Just like there have been many people who have been 'the Green Lantern', or 'Doctor Who'.  I agree that attaching (as Adam) to each reference of 'Kensei' is quite clunky, it does serve to clearly show who and when which portrayer is representing Kensei.  Perhaps we could make a citation in the original summary, that states the 1671 timeline through to the [[Out of Time]] scene where [[Yaeko]] confirms Hiro, not Adam to be the Kensei who will be remembered throughout the future generations; we could state that unless otherwise mentioned, Adam is the portrayer of Kensei.  Yes Adam portrayed Kensei in more scenes that Hiro or 'decoy Kensei'; however, when referring to the historical legend of 'Kensei' and its legacy, Hiro embodied that personae of Kensei much more than Adam. <small>--[[User:HiroDynoSlayer|HiroDynoSlayer]] ([[User talk:HiroDynoSlayer|talk]]) 11/6/2007 11:35 (EST)</small>
***** I think you're overthinking it.  All I'm saying is that history sections for episodes prior to ''{{ep|207}}'' shouldn't make any reference to a character called "Adam" because prior to that, no character called "Adam" has appeared.  I don't see what's so challenging or difficult about this.  We do it with every other previously unnamed or misnamed character on the entire site.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 12:15, 6 November 2007 (EST)
****** Yeah, while this may take a certain finesse to handle, episode references to Kensei should not be changed.  Dave Anders was Kensei regardless of Hiro pretending to be him at one point.  There is one unique Kensei and that was Dave Anders's character.  Now, it will also have to be noted on the Kensei article that much of the history of Kensei was incorrectly attributed to him and was in fact Hiro's doing.  It's not too complicated, really.  Dave Anders was the only Kensei.  The fact that the stories about Kensei were mostly about Hiro is just a historical inaccuracy that should be mentioned on Kensei's page.  This should make the character pages work out nicely.  ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 12:27, 6 November 2007 (EST))
******* But....David Ander's was only 'Kensei' for some yet-unknown period of time.  Even though his back-history hasn't been given yet, David Anders character was not a Japanese born person named Kensei.  His is a Britt.  So at some point, which we haven't been told yet, Anders -->became Kensei, or took upon himself that name and identity...held it for awhile, then it became transferred over to Hiro for posterity.  That's what makes it kinda difficult.  Had Anders been a true Japanese-born Kensei who was Kensei from a baby forward; then yes; Anders would be the only Kensei.  But in truth, Anders was just Kensei for a certain duration of time. <small>--[[User:HiroDynoSlayer|HiroDynoSlayer]] ([[User talk:HiroDynoSlayer|talk]]) 11/6/2007 13:18 (EST)</small>
******** Well, Candice was only Candice for "a certain duration of time", but it would be silly and misleading to go back through all of the season one episodes and say "Betty (as Candice)".--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 13:21, 6 November 2007 (EST)
******** I'm looking at Kensei from a different perspective.  To me David Anders was always the sole Takezo Kensei.  The fact that history records him inaccurately is just a note to me.  Let's say, for instance, that someone uses your identity and saves the world.  History will record you as a hero and everyone will think you're a hero.  But in truth you never did those things... it wouldn't change the fact that you are still you. :)  ([[User:Admin|Admin]] 13:27, 6 November 2007 (EST))
*Hardvice, There is a difference, though, between Kensei and Candice.  Betty aka Candace was always just the same single person.  It may be true that Betty went by different names and appearances at different times, but it was always the same person.  David Anders, however, was only 'Kensei' for a specific window of time.  Other people (two that we know of), were Kensei at other times.  I don't think we should go back and change all the names....but I do think we just need to be clear in as simple a way as possible, which Kensei is Kensei in each setting.  Perhaps some of this confusion will get straightened out as we learn more about Adam's history and background.  Even before this episode, when things panned out the way that they did, it bothered me calling Anders Kensei, because to me, Hiro was obviously Kensei because of his approach to the Samurai budo code; (and Anders never fit with the Samurai budo code).  Sylar was never Zane Taylor, but he pretended to be.  I think that is true of Anders....we just don't know where and when he picked up the name 'Kensei'. <small>--[[User:HiroDynoSlayer|HiroDynoSlayer]] ([[User talk:HiroDynoSlayer|talk]]) 11/6/2007 14:48 (EST)</small>
** Well, yes.  Hiro fits with the ''legend of Kensei'' because he always was the Kensei of legend.  However, "Takezo Kensei" is, first and foremost, a name.  And as a name, it applies to Adam Monroe, who chose it and used it as his own.  The fact that Hiro later impersonated him and became famous using his name doesn't mean it wasn't Monroe's name.  It's what people called him.  It's what he called himself.  Heck, it's what Yaeko continued to call him, even after she knew that Hiro was responsible for many (but not all) of his legendary accomplishments.  Takezo Kensei is Adam Monroe.  Hiro poses as Takezo Kensei and makes him a legend.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 15:10, 6 November 2007 (EST)
** And we ''do'' know where Kensei got his name.  He tells us himself: he made it up because it sounded impressive and made him a more desirable mercenary.  People seem to be getting hung up on the Kensei of legend.  The Kensei of legend is just Hiro pretending to be the real Kensei, who was, ultimately, not a very nice person.  It's like saying that Vlad Tepes wasn't Dracula because he wasn't a vampire.  The fact that a legend grows out of a real person doesn't steal the real person's name, assumed or otherwise, away from them.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 15:14, 6 November 2007 (EST)
*I would just like to say that I was the first to say that he is still alive today. :) --[[User:Pinkkeith|Pinkkeith]] 15:44, 6 November 2007 (EST)
*Just as an analogy to consider:  If this were The Princess Bride Wiki instead of Heroes Wiki, how would an article on The Dread Pirate Roberts be written?  --[[User:Psiphiorg|Psiphiorg]] 02:44, 7 November 2007 (EST)
Wild idea here: What if we were to make Takezo Kensei a disambiguation page:
:'''Takezo Kensei, the man''' (with a link to Adam)
:'''Takezo Kense, the legend''' (with a link to Hiro
Just an insane idea, maybe it will work, maybe not, just mull it over and see if that would provide for some clarity. --[[User:Aero Zeppelin|Aero Zeppelin]] 02:59, 7 November 2007 (EST)

== Birth year ==

Because the [[Museum of Natural History]] lists Kensei's birth year as [[1584]], we should too. It is not up to us to determine if this is right or wrong. Of course, if another canon source contradicts this date, we remove both dates and make a note. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 15:52, 20 November 2007 (EST)
: I guess I wonder why the one factoid gets Adam's information, but other(s) do not.  Is the birthdate really Adam's?  Or should it be Hiro's, or the standin's?  We really have three different birthdates in play here, not just one.  As for factoids that do not list Adam's information, I'm thinking of powers.  While it was thought that there was just Kensei, he was listed as having cellular regeneration.  When the focus moved to the legend, not just one of the people behind the legend, it became better to list all the choices, or none.  And it ended at none.  Not sure why birthdate should be treated so different, when we still have three different birth dates in play (though I admit we have no clue about the birthdate of the standin.) - [[User:TexasAndroid|TexasAndroid]] 16:06, 20 November 2007 (EST)
::As far as I can tell, that birthdate belongs exclusively to the legend, and not to any of the people filling the role. The birthdate of 1584 would put him at almost 90 years old at the time he performed his trials. We know that Hiro obviously wasn't born that year, and Adam didn't yet know about his regeneration, so he was likely born only 30 years before the trials, and the fake Kensei didn't seem to be that old either. So when the date belongs only to the legend, and none of the people that filled the role, it seems appropriate to add it to the page about the legend. --[[User:Maelwys|Maelwys]] 16:49, 20 November 2007 (EST)
::: I've been of the assumption that Adam was indeed 90 years old at the time.  The elements are all there for Adam to have simply been living an extended life as a drunken warrior, with the alchohol making him never really realize just how long he has lived.  If he were regularly moving on, never making ties to others such that he would see them age while he did not, and with the booze blurring his life in general, then I would think it's quite possible that he is indeed 90 years old at that point, without having a clue to the fact.  This is much more speculation on my part than fact, but IMHO it is perfectly possible that the given birthdate is indeed Adam's. - [[User:TexasAndroid|TexasAndroid]] 16:57, 20 November 2007 (EST)
:He was 357 up til before he died. According to The Ten Brides of Takezo Kensei, he got 42 during 1692. --[[User:DLHawk|DLHawk]] 13:49, 10 November 2008 (EST)
:: And according to the [[Museum of Natural History]], he was 87 when he met Hiro. In an [[Interview:Chuck Kim|interview]], [[Chuck Kim]] said that there were some historical inaccuracies. It's not something we can pin down, exactly. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 15:24, 10 November 2008 (EST)

== Category ==

Kensei is being listed in Category:Minor Characters. That strikes me as odd. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 03:26, 2 December 2007 (EST)
* Is he not listed in the character portals at all?--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 03:57, 2 December 2007 (EST)
** Maybe because of Fake Kensei?--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 03:59, 2 December 2007 (EST)
*** My point is: is ''this article'' not listed in the character portals at all?  If not, should it be?  If it should, then it needs to have a type added.  If it shouldn't, then I'll have to add a reflex to override the autocat.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 04:00, 2 December 2007 (EST)
*** And yes, ''this article'' is in fact not listed in any character portal.  Minor is the default.  Since he wasn't in a portal, that's where he ended up.  Do we need to override that, or can we assign him a type and add him to a portal?--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 04:03, 2 December 2007 (EST)
**** Hmm... I'd put him in as a major character because two of the three people who act as him are major. I dunno though.--[[User:Riddler|Riddler]] 04:06, 2 December 2007 (EST)
***** It's just such a weird situation because he's portrayed by [[David Anders]], so I guess he would be a main character (like Jessica was in Season One). But he's also sort of not really a character at all. I'm in the camp of "Kensei is Adam and others used the name", but other people have the opinion that "Kensei is a legend and is not and never was a real person"....If he's in a character portal, I'd say he's a main character. But another option is to make a subportal of references for "Non-real-world references" (or something like that) and include things like [[Kensei]], [[Gannon Car Rentals]], and [[Yatta]]. -- {{User:Ryangibsonstewart/sig}} 04:10, 2 December 2007 (EST)
****** For now, I will forcibly exclude him from the cat to maintain the status quo, then.--[[User:Hardvice|Hardvice]] <small>[[User talk:Hardvice|(talk)]]</small> 05:52, 2 December 2007 (EST)